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American Audio V6001 Plus ???
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RosscoPico View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Points: 955 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RosscoPico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2012 at 12:42pm
Thanks for the response, that makes much more sense to me now :)
 
From the last time we talked about this on the amplifier internals thread, I made the following points (when I was making my comparision to the Void Infinite 8 in terms of output trannies);
 

"If you look at Lewis' article about the Void Infinite 8 Mk.1, in the report I read that the mosfets used are the same as in the V6001. See here: http://www.abeltronics.co.uk/repair.php?ID=void

As they use the same 2SC5200 / 2SA1943 Toshiba mosfets, and they both use the same number of them I know the American Audio isn't lacking in the mosfet department.

Anyway, it would be rather daft of them to invest in a 5kW toroid for it and then not spend an extra few quid to get the sufficient number of transistors for it. (having said that, the Cerwin Vega could be a different story..).

32 x 150w mosfets = 4800w

But anyway, as I'm sure you know a 3 stage class H amp would be capable of putting out more than this because of the circuitry used (take the Void Infinite 8 for example).

The V6001 also has a decent amount of capacitors, so I don't think your "75% claim" can be upheld now or am I mistaken?"

So the 3 points which that doesn't cover is the smoothing and power regulators (tbh, I don't know about this), but I do know that this amp is very stable in 4 ohms operation.
 
I'll ask my colleague about these points you've raised as I'm sure he'll know the answers and I think he's also tried testing the amp in 2 ohm operation so I'll find out about that too and report back soon....
 
Anyway I guess it can't be soo bad eh!


Edited by RosscoPico - 23 January 2012 at 12:43pm
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Small point: the 5200/1943´s aren´t mosfets, they´re bipolar and also must be one of the most falsified transistor on the planet! Unhappy
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Originally posted by Ceharden on 11/08/2010 Ceharden on 11/08/2010 wrote:

Can I just point out that 2SA1943 and 2SC5200 are most definitely BIPOLAR transistors and not MOSFETS. Just a slight difference there.
 
As you can see, I've already been put to rights in that regard.  If you notice, I've quoted a comment which I made over a year ago on the amp internals thread..
 
Good spot tho buddySmile
 
Please tell me how can I test to see whether they are genuine or not then?
 
Or is bench testing the amp as a whole unit the most reliable to see how it performs in relation to the specifications which are claimed by A.A.?
 
 
 


Edited by RosscoPico - 23 January 2012 at 3:10pm
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Originally posted by RosscoPico RosscoPico wrote:

 
Or is bench testing the amp as a whole unit the most reliable to see how it performs in relation to the specifications which are claimed by A.A.?


50hz sine wave bench testing 8 ohm load on one channel, 4 ohm per channel is a good start.
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My sound standard 5k has 52 devices in total,same as the ones mentioned above,13 pairs a side,
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Originally posted by paulus paulus wrote:

My sound standard 5k has 52 devices in total,same as the ones mentioned above,13 pairs a side,


Exactly, not all Soundstandard series are same build quality, so each has to be treated differently.
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Old Croc
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Originally posted by RosscoPico RosscoPico wrote:

Originally posted by Ceharden on 11/08/2010 Ceharden on 11/08/2010 wrote:

Can I just point out that 2SA1943 and 2SC5200 are most definitely BIPOLAR transistors and not MOSFETS. Just a slight difference there.
 
As you can see, I've already been put to rights in that regard.  If you notice, I've quoted a comment which I made over a year ago on the amp internals thread..
 
Good spot tho buddySmile
 
Please tell me how can I test to see whether they are genuine or not then?
 
Or is bench testing the amp as a whole unit the most reliable to see how it performs in relation to the specifications which are claimed by A.A.?
 


Sorry, never spotted that.

I have a small amp module that I use for testing. Falsifications usually have smaller dies in them so will breakdown at lower voltage/currents. I start off at +/- 40V and then try higher rails, depending what I have at hand!

I suppose you could also just rig up a simple emitter follower circuit to make sure it can take the specified voltage and current, but obviously you need to stay within the SOA! (Or just break one open and look LOL )

I would never put them in an amp I was repairing to check them, just in case everything went bang again!! Embarrassed Smile






Edited by Earplug - 23 January 2012 at 5:45pm
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Originally posted by RosscoPico RosscoPico wrote:

That's interesting Paulus, but actually I don't think it is...
 
So maybe that's due the the fact that some Crown's like the MA5000 series have high distortion in the low frequency range (e.g. 7.4%THD @40Hz / 8ohms / 1540w), see here;
 
http://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=crown_MA5002VZ
 
 
Man, Crown 5000VZ is rated for 1300Watts/8 ohms, NOT 1540!
 
Is normally when you push it over specifications, (driving it in hard clipping) to have distortions.
 
Watch here PURE POWER of an 5000VZ amp, and please calculate power of the 102-103 volts RMS on 8 ohm dummy load at 100 Hz (1326 watts) , when IOC led start easly light, showing distortion greater than 0,05%.
 
Load is 8 ohms in next test:
 
 
 
 
Also with all respect that I carry to Mr Abeltronics, where he told, I citate him
 
"Severe distortion at low frequencies on both channels even at 1/4 power. Distortion seems to be proportional to output voltage rather than frequency or load impedance which is very unusual"
 
I presume, Mr abeltronics has tested a faulty amp (usually fails mosfets from VZ switches, keeping the groundbridged output topology, undervolted and underbiased)..
 
Why I'm telling that?
 
Watch here same amp tested on 4 ohms dummy load from 30 Hz till 20 Khz, I don't see any kind of distiortion, as mr abeltronics LIED on his site:
 
 
 
 
 And here is at 30 Hz on 2 ohms load, where I bet, alot of amplifiers, tested at 2 ohms at 30 Hz will fail,  exploding, or get into thermal/protection mode...
 
 
67,5 Vrms on 2 ohms load, amp preset for 240 volts, main supply, and mine wall soket drops around 210 volts...Angry
 
So, don't blame an amp, before testing yourself, personally I have learned to NOT TRUST ANYBODY, except mine EYES...
 
I bet  that 80% of that "new generation" of amplifiers , expecially "big burst power amplifersDead", or better call them "fart lie amplifiers Clap ", cannot offer so clean and so sustained sin output power claimed above 9000Watts per channel, alias powersoft...
 
 
 
 


Edited by DjLeco - 23 January 2012 at 7:44pm
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Quote better call them "fart lie amplifiers
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RosscoPico View Drop Down
Young Croc
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DjLeco, I think that's certainly a very valid point you have raised there!

I assume that these measurements were taken by using the amplifier's clipping lights as a guide, but if the amp was starting to clip well before the warning lights were observed - then I see it more as flawed level indicators rather than distortion issues with the amp.

Obviously for an end-user this makes it a real challenge to keep "over-driving" the amp in check.

I've heard lots of positive feedback about the 5000VZ (and some negative) so it's an interesting beast that I've always been curious to try out...

I'd like to hear Lewis' comments about the test and the point you've raised which potentially puts the testing methodology into question.....

Anyway, I've said enough for now and I'll respond to the other comments made in a bit! 

{added comments following your edited post:  sure I think that could be a very plausible explanation, so it would be good to conduct a retest at some point then judging by your worthy analysis..

Originally posted by DjLeco DjLeco wrote:

 as mr abeltronics LIED on his site

You don't mean "deliberately" do you?!}


Edited by RosscoPico - 23 January 2012 at 7:47pm
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Me, I'm a little doubtfull about that, and I'm telling why:
 
All other fixed or tested amplifiers, pictures and alot of descriptions, excepting Macrotech 5000VZ...
 
Why?Wink
 
I think, that amp must be tested at amount of power for that he was designed, and put movies and pictures, especially when that amp was blamed for bad performings...
 
If you want to see all amps that I've tested, and / or fixed, you can see there, but is in Romanian writting and presented.
 
 
 


Edited by DjLeco - 23 January 2012 at 8:17pm
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Originally posted by DjLeco DjLeco wrote:

..mr abeltronics LIED on his site...


Whoa, calm down.

It's possible the amp was faulty when I tested it, and the other positive things I've heard about that amp, including tests performed by other engineers, seem to corroborate that.

However, the 'problem' was absolutely identical on both channels. It is very unusual for there to be an identical fault on both channels that manifests itself in this way, especially given the dual-mono nature of the amp. It's possible that someone 'repaired' the amp once, and doing a piss poor job of it, causing the same fault on both channels. But I could not find evidence of this when the lid was off - there were no obvious signs the amp had been tampered with.

I did not photograph the scope when testing the amp as I did not have the camera available on the day the owner brought the amp in for testing, but there was a great deal of visible distortion to the sine wave on both channels. I seem to remember the top and bottom of the sine wave being semi-circular rather than sinusoidal, and with no crossover distiortion on the distortion residual, on both channels.

I would welcome the opportunity to test the amp again - if anyone has a spare (working!) 5000 series they'd like to send me, I'd happily test it and update the results. In the meantime, I will put a note on the webpage to indicate the amp may have been faulty.
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