American Audio V6001 Plus ???

RosscoPico wrote: Hi Levyte,  I think we are going round again in circles here, as you've still not successfully explained to me why the V-6001 amplifier won't manage to live up to it's quoted specification figures as I think you are suggesting? Please let me explain why I have this opinion.... Firstly, you have claimed that the V-6001 is supposed to be able to exceed the CA18 on sub.  If we look at the specifications below, you will notice that this is an untrue statement; Crest CA18 (taken from the PDF manual for this amp) 1kHz, 0.03% THD+N 8 ohm Stereo - 1000W 4 ohm Stereo - 1800W 2 ohm Stereo - 2500W 8 ohm Bridged Mono Power - 3600W 4 ohm Bridged Mono Power - 5000W American Audio (taken from the PDF manual for this amp) 1kHz, 0.1% THD+N 8 ohm Stereo - 1100W 4 ohm Stereo - 1800W 2 ohm Stereo - 2500W 8 ohm Bridged Mono Power - 3600W 4 ohm Bridged Mono Power - 5000W From this you can deduce that in 4 out of the 5 measured ratings they are the same (with the exception of 8ohm stereo) for each amplifier with one important difference - the American Audio figures are measured at 0.1% THD+N which is a higher amount of distortion than the Crest's figures which are measured at 0.03% THD+N. From this we can establish that the Crest actually has better output figures, as they can deliver the same wattage output but at a lower measured distortion figures.  If the Crest had been measured at 0.1% THD+N (the same as the V-6001) then the output figures would have actually been slightly higher than the American Audio!   This might explain also why the 8 ohm stereo figure is 100w more per channel than the CA18.

OK.

These specs I saw on another website were misleading then, as they state,

http://www.directproaudio.com/product.cfm?directid=57377

• Output Power: 2 ohms, 1 khz 1% THD 2530W RMS per channel
• 4 ohms, 1 khz 1% THD 1920W RMS per channel
  
• 8 ohms, 1 khz 1% THD 1260W RMS per channel
  
• Bridged Mode: 4 ohms, 1 khz 1% THD 5100W RMS per channel, 8 ohms, 1 khz 1% THD 3650W RMS per channel
  
• Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): Less than 0.03% (20Hz-20kHz, @ 4 Ohms)
  
• Input Sensitivity & Impedance: 1.0v rms (0 dBv) (@ 8 Ohms)
  
• Dimensions & Weight: Height : 5.25" (13.3cm)
• Width: 19" (48.3cm) Depth: 15.9" (40.5cm)
• Weight: 62 lbs (28 kg)
  
• Frequency Response: ﾱ.5dB, 1W RMS 8 ohms (10Hz - 35 kHz) ﾱ3dB, 1W RMS 8 ohms (5Hz - 85 kHz)
  
• Hum & Noise: 100 dB, unweighted (@ 8 Ohms)
  
• Signal to Noise Ratio: 100 dB , unweighted (@ 4 ohms full power) "A" Weighted
  
• Slew Rate: 25v/usec
  
• Damping Factor: 500 (@ 8 Ohms)
  
• Protection Circuit: DC output protection,
• Overload protection Short circuit protection, On & Off protection
  
• Special Features: Sub Woofer Crossover 20-200Hz LED mode indicator Contractor Smart Feature (Switch on rear panel to disable front volume controls)
  
• Power Consumption: 53A @ 120V AC (@ 4 Ohms) / 25.5A @ 240V AC (@ 4 Ohms)
  
• Turn-On Thump Protection: Yes
  
• Cooling System: Dual 2 speed fans & heatsink

To be honest, I'm not interested in 1khz measurements for a sub amp, as I don't need 2kwpc @ 4 ohms of 1khz, thru my subs. One source of assurance, is when the manufacturer is confident enough to state the 20-20khz performance of an amp.

RosscoPico wrote: The circuity is a massive contributing factor which determines the actual sustained power output of an amplifier.  It's not a simple as how many transistors are utilised in an amplifier design... As I have explained to you before a couple of times, the Void Infinite 8 has the same number (and type - i.e. Toshiba) of output transistors as the V-6001 but at the same time the Infinite 8 can deliver 3112 wpc into 2ohms continuous @0.4% THD (see Abletronics test results: http://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=Void_Infinite_8_mk2 That's 6224 watts continuous from an amplifier which only has 32 x 150w transistors (i.e. 4800W), so when you tell me again that " They just don't seem to have enough output devices. " when you are looking at a V-6001, then surely you would be saying the same thing about the Infinite 8?!

If the V6001plus has same number and type of O/P transistors as Inf8MK2,

1. Why is the V6001 1khz o/p power at 4 ohm, "much" less than the Inf8Mk2 4 ohm O/P figure measured at 40hz ?

http://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=Void_Infinite_8_mk2

Freq	8R Performance		4R Performance		2R Performance
Freq	Watts	THD%	Watts	THD%	Watts	THD%
40Hz	1431	0.09	2401	0.12	3112 4158*	0.40 -
1kHz	1378	0.06	2415	0.10	3128 4095*	1.21 -
10kHz	1326	0.11	2162	0.16	3089 3978*	2.36 -

Lewis mentioned 2 ohm stereo sine testing at 40hz resulted in premature clipping, which limited output.

2. Why is the Damping factor of V6001 at 8 ohms, less than the damping factor of the Infinite 8 MK2?

RosscoPico wrote: The CA18 retails for £2899 so it's far more expensive, seeing I can offer to sell 4x new V-6001 amps for the price of just a single CA18!  I wouldn't disagree that Crest is a better brand to buy (if they can afford it), and I'd happily sell someone a new CA18 over a V-6001 if that's what a customer preferred.

I don't know anyone who with £3K to buy a sub amp, who would buy a new CA18 for £2899.

They would most likely buy a used K10 for approx £2K, or 2x PL380 for approx £3K.

RosscoPico wrote: Of course there's also the benefit of a 5yr warranty which is preferable! No disrespect to you either Levyte, but I thought if I explained this then you'd be aware that I'm not actually trying to "push" sales of the V-6001, but I'd still say that it has it's place in the market for customers who want to buy new and at a very cost effective price.  Maybe we will discover one day that this amp is 100-200w underpowered at 40Hz but does this really matter much at this price?!

Now the £650 price tag, and 5 year warranty are major selling points. Instead of comparing this amp to an Infinite 8MK2,  would be better comparing it to budget 5K torroidials.

RosscoPico wrote: levyte357 wrote: Maybe someday soon, someone will organise 5K torroidial amp test..    Haha yes, maybe that's the only way we'll eventually see eye to eye on these matters then..

I have owned an Infinite 8MK2, but don't sell them and wouldn't be buying another one. However for many other people, the amp has proven itself, being used in gigs, or on bench 40-50hz, as the ultimate 4 ohm stereo torroidial amp for sub. So cannot be compared to the budget layer of 5K'ish torroidials.

As you've said the, 6001plus has it's place in the market, agreed.

As no one has measured the output yet at 4 ohms 40-50hz, and the manufacturer hasn't published 20-20khz figures, and I've seen no feedback regarding amp driving 2x heavy duty 5" VC drivers like PD1850 or Turbomax 1500 per channel, I'm just saying the pic of the amp internals raised few questions in my mind.

So all will be revealed if we can line up 4 ohm stereo test, against 5000VZ, CA18, Naphon, Audiocenter 12.2 & Darq PA18, QSC 5050, Phonic XP5000, Crown XLS5000, in building with solid supply.


Edited by levyte357 - 14 May 2012 at 5:15pm

levyte357 wrote:   OK. These specs I saw on another website were misleading then, as they state, http://www.directproaudio.com/product.cfm?directid=57377

The specs aren't misleading, those wattage figures are for 1% THD so they are obviously going to be higher figures than outputs measured @ 0.1% THD.

levyte357 wrote:   To be honest, I'm not interested in 1khz measurements for a sub amp, as I don't need 2kwpc @ 4 ohms of 1khz, thru my subs. One source of assurance, is when the manufacturer is confident enough to state the 20-20khz performance of an amp.

I agree with you there, it is frustrating that AA and some other brands don't give 20-20KHz figures so I totally see your point in this respect.

levyte357 wrote: I don't know anyone who with £3K to buy a sub amp, who would buy a new CA18 for £2899. They would most likely buy a used K10 for approx £2K, or 2x PL380 for approx £3K.

Neither do I, especially for the full retail price!

I brought up the cost factor, as I know that any potential buyer would surely expect that an amplifier that has a vastly more expensive retail price than another comparable amp with similar specifications would be getting something at least for all this extra outlay...

Of course this will be brand reputation, warranty period, servicing, reliability, quality of components etc.

The point I was trying to make is that I'd expect the V-6001 must be inferior in some regards, considering that the retail price for it is around 30% of the CA18.

Even if the V-6001 is only 4000w rather than 5000w on bass then I think it still represents very good value for money as there are UK suppliers and they are well built and reliable.  

Having said that, I'm sure you can find other Chinese made amps which can do the same or better and it would be interesting to have a shoot out one day!

levyte357 wrote: Now the £650 price tag, and 5 year warranty are major selling points. Instead of comparing this amp to an Infinite 8MK2,  would be better comparing it to budget 5K torroidials.

American Audio has a 1yr warranty in the UK and 3yrs in the US.  It was Crest that I was referring to for the 5 year warranty.

levyte357 wrote: I have owned an Infinite 8MK2, but don't sell them and wouldn't be buying another one. However for many other people, the amp has proven itself, being used in gigs, or on bench 40-50hz, as the ultimate 4 ohm stereo torroidial amp for sub. So cannot be compared to the budget layer of 5K'ish torroidials. As you've said the, 6001plus has it's place in the market, agreed. As no one has measured the output yet at 4 ohms 40-50hz, and the manufacturer hasn't published 20-20khz figures, and I've seen no feedback regarding amp driving 2x heavy duty 5" VC drivers like PD1850 or Turbomax 1500 per channel, I'm just saying the pic of the amp internals raised few questions in my mind. So all will be revealed if we can line up 4 ohm stereo test, against 5000VZ, CA18, Naphon, Audiocenter 12.2 & Darq PA18, QSC 5050, Phonic XP5000, Crown XLS5000, in building with solid supply.

That's good then and I think we have a better understanding now - I'm all for putting things up for test as that's the real way to find out the winners and losers in the game!  That's also why I respect Mr Abel for the work which he has done in this regard, and so I say - bring on the next amp meet

I really don't like manufacturers which make false claims about their products, so ultimately I'm all in favour of ascertaining who tells the truth and who fabricates the lies!

darkraver wrote: Well any test / comparison will be fun for sure. As said my USD360 China (3 stepp Class H, 3rd step = 180V) amp beated the V6001, Ram Bux (something), EV TG7, Yorkville AP6040, Chevin A6000 (yes, indeed) and so on pure on raw power output. Basically the V6001 is something like a pimped down (3th step = 150V ??) version of my China cracker !

When?

greetings i see that you all are discussing v6001 I just wanted to know if anyone has or know were I can find a schematic or service manual for the v6001 plus?

anyone can tell me some more about this amp performing 4 ohms a side on sub duty after two years of no posts in this thread?
I can get these for cheap.

+1 and internal components easily sourced (here in Ja.)