Amplifier for Fulcrum Acoustic

Certain, measureable aspects of sound aren't debutable. They are facts and can't be dismissed. I prefer clean detailed sound. If the amplifier isn't capable of producing the detail i know is there in the signal, it's a bad amp regardless that some people might like it.

If the speaker is distorted then again it isn't really open for discussion if it sounds good or not. It doesn't. Even if someone might like it like that.

Technical aspects are facts which can't be dismissed. Subjective side is if you like more bass on the system compared to someone else.

Problem also stems from the fact that very few people have actually heard a really good sound. And even less can actually compare systems side by side to keep their image fresh on what sounds good and what doesn't.

I've experienced this in the past when being "in the bubble" everything sounded great but after coming out from that bubble, it turned out that it didn't sound that great after all. But that was because there wasn't enough changed to compare against others.

If someone runs their system, and only that, then it sounds like the best thing in the world. But only because they haven't done true comparison against others.

But surely that doesn't only apply to amps? Anything sounds the same. DSPs especially. Also, no point making so many different drivers as they all sound the same at the end. Right?

If you aren't interested to get the best sound, that's fine. But don't try to stop open discussion about it as something called sound quality and good sound do exist. And even electronics sound vastly different. You just need to spend some time on learning what and why and comparing things. Or should we say, doesn't matter what components you use on passive xover, they all sound the same? Regardles of ESR differences on capacitors etc?

Partly true. Emotional response is what we are after and surely that is managed in various ways. But nobody can't deny that great sound gives better response than poor sound, even if they both are emotionally as strong reactions :)

See, what i'm purely on about is the technical quality. Sound system should reproduce the signal going in 100%. If it falls short on that, it's not perfect system. And i know, they don't exist. Yet. But nothing should stop us from trying.

My background is music, having been taught several instruments from a very early age and i think that may give me a different position to those who's background is science or engineering where measurements and accuracy of results are key. Your comment of distortion having to sound bad is untrue - tell that to the users of Marshall guitar amplification, or the users of scoop bins and pre-amps ( items that i regard more as musical instruments rather than mere engineering components) - there are times when accuracy are not what you want.

Now you are confusing intentional and unintentional. Surely if artist or soundman wants his sound to be distorted, he/she can do that. But if the system does it for him/her automatically, that's wrong and classifies as bad sound. As a someone who can play stuff, i'm sure you appreciate that guitar sounds like a guitar and not like a banjo. And that is exactly what i'm talking about. If one amp makes system sound like a banjo, it's not a good amp.

Instruments are instruments, sound reproduction system is sound reproduction system and one should not be treated like the other.

There is also the relationship between different components of a system that are very hard to predict, hence my recommendation to try different options for real rather than relying on highly speculative and unreliable recommendations from others who have no direct experience of the overall system in question.  I'm not dismissing the importance of measurements, accuracy or using the very powerful DSP tools that we now have available, but fundamentally, at the end of the day, i don't care what the numbers say, i have to trust my ears.

Very few things are not fairly accurately predictable and certain parts always behave certain way. Amp is an amp regardless of what box you put after it.  And those measurements, DSP and such are again related to subjective, not technical aspect of a system. Those you use to ensure you get the result you want. But you can't use them to compensate bad component, like an amp. What ever the amp sound is, it will be that and can not be fixed with amplitude or time domain controller (DSP)

Friend of mine has both APA and Delta amps. When his system runs with Delta amps it sounds good. But every sound engineer so far has noticed the difference when it runs with APA, in a very positive way. Same settings so only difference is the amps. And i do know about different DSPs doing things differently, but rarely the case within the products from the same company. Delta uses XTA DSP and same code as the APA DSP.

Having a good reference is very useful for sure, listening to low quality reproduction can definitely re-program your perception of how things should sound. Having a good quality reference to keep your ears as "golden" as possible is definitely a good idea. But my former, original point stands - to find out what works best for the speakers in question and their owner you need to try the possible options. No amount of other peoples opinions will help with that. including mine.

Yes, reference point is always needed and ultimately it is the best you can find. Only then you know how much different you are and what needs fixing. But as i said earlier, certain technical aspects of an amp in this case, won't change depending on what box goes after it. And you also need to always consider people's different biases on their opinions. You run your system with Labs, you'll always like them and you'll always defend your decision to go with them. And nothing wrong with that, but it is an important factor to consider when comparing opinions. I don't own anything, i don't run systems as my day job. I'm extremely critical towards everything and always do my own testing and judging before voicing an opinion. Listening your system when you are engineering will not give me an idea how it sounds apart from some obvious facts. When i set it up, run it with my settings and the way i setup things, then i can say more accurate facts and opinions about it.

Toasty here knows as well that i like very few things in the field of audio and i think he also understands that and we agree to disagree on many times. And again, he uses Powersoft and Linea and thus his opinion will always be favourable for them. Normal human nature.

There is so much more in this whole thing than just quickly stated opinions based on fast thinking. But unfortunately that is the most commonly used way of thinking. I try my best to use slow thinking and question everything before reaching the conclusion. Hence i find myself disliking over 90% of the audio stuff out there. But there is always a reason for everything, when it is a bad design or when it is a commercial decision.

But there is always a reason.