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Anyone using partial or full B&C IPAL solution?

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Crashpc View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 December 2019 at 7:22pm
Hey community.
I'm thinking about that, for compact universal bass solution. Not sure about certain technical details. I would guess only actual users could tell. Anybody around? Thank you in advance:
Pressure probe usage for two speakers in two bins, safety if one speaker goes unconnected, speaker design and so on...


Edited by Crashpc - 08 December 2019 at 7:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airbell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 2:00pm
Currently I'm testing a IPAL Mod and a 21IPAL driver in a ported enclosure around 200L tuned at 34Hz.
I've also tested the IPAL Mod with the 21DS115-4 in the same enclosure
and 18DS115-8 in 115L Net 34Hz tuned,
but haven't finished testing yet.

So far I can tell some things.

The DPC really makes a difference in sound.
The bass sounds kind of tighter and faster, better for electronic music in my opinion, more controlled,
but on the other side loses a bit of warmth and "full sound" at the very low notes (from a very deep kick drum for example).

The IPAL Mod itself can deliver up to 4,5-5kW burst for ~2seconds.
but to be honest I wouldn't push it that hard, because the smps transformer and pfc isn't really made for this, so long therm you would risk a failure. 3-3,5kW seems more safe.
Continuous real power is 700watt what is actually more than any speaker, except maybe the 21IPAL, can take!
For comparison, a PS Digimod3004PFC2 has bridged 2,2-2,3kW burst at 40Hz and 600W continuous.

The IPAL is halfbridge topology, recycling the energy works very well with the DPC 
(the amplifier is "braking" the driver to correct the acoustical amplitude while recycling the "braking" enery back into the capacitors, at least I think so).

Voltage limit of the ipal is 185Vpeak but clean amplitude is more like 165-170Vpeak.

You can't limit the burst power, just indirectly by limiting the peak voltage at impedance minimum, or limit the peak current (take care with current limiting because if the voice coil heats up the impedance rises, the current limit stays the same thus voltage and power goes up!).

You can set a lot of other limiters aswell, e.g. excursion, Vrms, Ipeak, Irms..
But you have to take care that you don't overdrive the input extremely (like some dj might would) then it CAN happen that the true power limiter doesnt work correctly anymore (in my opinion!).

Downside is there are almost no other amps to drive a 21IPAL with 1ohm, so if the IPAL mod ever has a failure or something else or you want to change to 19" amps again then you have a problem.

The other way around the IPAL mod needs low impedance drivers to work well, if not, you waste a lot of potential, so for the IPAL mod there are not a lot of drivers aviable.
IPAL mod with the 18DS115-4 is already wasting some potential because of too low voltage,
with the 21DS115-4 it is actually alright, because it has lower re thus lower impedance minimum.

I have not yet made my final judgment, in the next months I will test 2x 18DS115-8 with 2x Digimod3004PFC2 against 1x 21IPAL with 1x IPAL Mod in comparable reflex enclosures against 2x 21DS115-4 with 1x IPAL mod.

I like the idea more of the double 18s with conventional amplifiers (modules) because it is more simple and you are more flexible. But saying that, so far I prefer the tight sound of the ipal mod with the ipal driver.

Some might say the 21IPAL in a reflex enclosure is a bit wasted, but it depends on what sound you like and what you want.
If you want single bass solution, max. spl and good punch then you could put a 18IPAL, 18DS115-4 or 18NLW9601-4 in a horn or tapped horn and drive it with a K10 or PLM14000.
If you want compactness, neutral sounding and deep bass, then reflex is in my opinion the best solution.
But well, this is another topic..

Hope I could help.






Edited by airbell - 15 May 2020 at 2:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airbell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 3:39pm
About the pressure sensor, 
if you want to drive with 1x ipal mod two drivers (eg 2x18IPAL) in two different enclosures this is no problem at all, you can just install the modul and pressure sensor in one sub and connect the other passively. 
But of course, you have to change the limiter settings and thiel small parameters (look below) with armonia plus, so you are not that flexible anymore, and if you set the power limit settings for 2 speakers but one will fail or only one is connected (somebody forgot to plug in the passive sub) it will probably destroy the active one because it gets twice the power then.
Only problem with the DPC according to some other users is if you have 2 ipal mods with 2 drivers that share the same enclosure, because the DPCs could start to "fight" against each other.
If the pressure sensor is not connected or has a failure the module will be muted automatically.

Another maybe useful information is,
from factory the ipal mod has an old firmware, with that you can use their old pcm software.
With this version you can enter your own thiele small parameters of the transducer.
This is necessary for the software to make correct calculations about the excursion, efficiency ect.
and especially if you want to use the virtual speaker mode to alter or simulate different thiele small parameters than your real ones.
Once you make a firmware update, you can only use the ipal mod with powersoft armonia plus,
but then it is not possible to change thiele small parameters by yourself.
you can only load the presets for bc18ipal bc218ipal bc21ipal and 18sound 18" and 21" ipal drivers.
The good thing is if you want to use the ipal mod with another transducer you can either upload the old firmware again (yes, it is possible) or ask powersoft to make a preset for you with your desired ts parameters.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2020 at 12:20pm
Hi airbell!

Thank you for your insights and comments.

I got some new info too. It seems that the IPALMOD is too much hassle for me. I went through one order for fellow colleague, and it gives too much trouble to my liking. Also it is loud (cooling and iddle outptut noise) for my semi hi-fi purposes. So I´m done with this idea.

Also driving 18IPAL is still on the expensive side. So while not disqualified, I´m still looking at 18DS115 as a better choice. I have heard some bad things on IPALs. Issues, snapping leads and such. Looking at the product image, it seems that leads are short and stiff for this kind of driver...

At the moment, I´m trying to decide between best value strong 18"s.
Either:
B&C 18IPAL
B&C 18DS115
Precision Devices PDN.185N02
(I´m open to other brands and models, as long as it provides sturdy cone, lots of throw, efficiency and great motor force.)

These are available, price is not bad for what these can do...

And yes, I´m going with that low volume bassreflex insanity the same way you like it. Those drivers will not get a chance to really shine, but the system will be extremely power dense, and will give most output for volume, and for single box too.

Amplifiers, that is another topic. Gisen FP14000Q comes to mind, Digisynthetic DSQ, and some others.

Please let me know how goes your testing, I´m very interested.

best regards
Petr.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 1:05am
Hi, i am Searching for the PCM Software. I got a Ipal Mod, but i use 18NTLW Transducer and Powersoft will not create a Preset. 
So I will try my best by myself. 

I searched hours for an PCM Install, but I can’t find anything. 
It would make me very happy, if anyone (maybe airbell) can send me an Install file. 

Best regards 
Jan 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VECTORDJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 3:40am
I find selling an Amp that can RMS at 700 watts as 5000 watt peak a FRAUD. I did Sound for Raves where the DJs turned it to 10 and then turned the Bass, Mid, and High to 10. This went on for hours. And more hours. Not 2 Seconds....FRAUD. I like pissing off Amp Makers anyways. A CA based Company makes Sub Amps rated at 1000s of watts that We tested. It could only muster 150 watts RMS. The Company sent Me a NASTY Email that no One listens to Sine Waves. Fact is it puts out 150 watts RMS. FRAUD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 4:37am
Originally posted by VECTORDJ VECTORDJ wrote:

I find selling an Amp that can RMS at 700 watts as 5000 watt peak a FRAUD. I did Sound for Raves where the DJs turned it to 10 and then turned the Bass, Mid, and High to 10. This went on for hours. And more hours. Not 2 Seconds....FRAUD. I like pissing off Amp Makers anyways. A CA based Company makes Sub Amps rated at 1000s of watts that We tested. It could only muster 150 watts RMS. The Company sent Me a NASTY Email that no One listens to Sine Waves. Fact is it puts out 150 watts RMS. FRAUD.

And.what would you concider not to be a FRAUD? PKN power ratings ? DeadDead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 9:19am
Originally posted by VECTORDJ VECTORDJ wrote:

I find selling an Amp that can RMS at 700 watts as 5000 watt peak a FRAUD. I did Sound for Raves where the DJs turned it to 10 and then turned the Bass, Mid, and High to 10. This went on for hours. And more hours. Not 2 Seconds....FRAUD. I like pissing off Amp Makers anyways. A CA based Company makes Sub Amps rated at 1000s of watts that We tested. It could only muster 150 watts RMS. The Company sent Me a NASTY Email that no One listens to Sine Waves. Fact is it puts out 150 watts RMS. FRAUD.

This is a joke right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote csg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 9:28am
Lets hope so…
“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2022 at 5:49pm
In a way, it is not a joke. It depends how peak is defined. If it is defined for less than 1s, it is troublesome. Not all music has more than 9dB dynamics. If the amp is able to hold the peak longer, but is restricted by parameters set for the system, then it´s fine. Also it depends if the parameter is defined for lowest impedance point, or for the "whole" spectrum. I bet IPAL can feed that power nearly across whole band, and at that moment it might not be the same as other generic stuff. Devil is in the detail, as always.
Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ricci Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 6:25pm
It is recommended that the true long term power into a 21Ipal be limited to 700w with the Ipalmod. Think about that. This is an extremely efficient and high power handling driver. Lesser drivers will burn up on much less. Note this is a real 700w avg power. It's a LOT. Realistically voice coils simply cannot dissipate a real 1kw applied for any length of time without damage to the adhesives, etc. 

No matter what music or content you are running it is not going to approach anywhere near even 50% duty cycle, averaged over anything longer than a few seconds. The duty cycle is much less than most think, even cranking away on the subs with heavy bass music. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 7:43pm
Indeed. For IPAL solution, all is good. I think we took that more in general. With generic amp giving 5000W of power, one might want to feed two good subs. At that moment, 350W a piece might not be enough. I think that was the thinking here.

I have some horrible chillout music with just 4.6dB dynamic range. LOL
At that moment, QSC RMX1850HD prolly can output more sustained power into two subs, and that might feel unfair for some, given the price difference. Although irrelevant, that might show you the point.

Efficiency though has very little to do with power handling, especially true power. This is the heat to get burned. As my colleague pointed out, any help to dissipate this comes to tremendous help. Maybe the split winding coil, above all else, helps the coil to cool down little better.
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