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_Natty_ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _Natty_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2018 at 10:24am
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Based on the TS Parameters,  that speaker is designed solely for a (Straight) horn. This is why Bass Box Pro kept suggesting a very small box. This loudspeaker was designed by the manufacture to be used as a midrange driver not a bass driver despite what marketing may claim. Such a speaker will struggle to play anything under 200 Hz without distorting tremendously.

It reminds me of the typical Rock & Roll driver from the 1980's that was designed to scream into the audience.   

As you are dabbling in ARTA, move to the next level and learn LIMP which is included with ARTA. LIMP will allow you to measure any loudspeaker to achieve its TS Parameters. 

Best Regards, 


are these comment based on a listening or measurement session or just with what is written on paper (ts)?

i was so afraid too to push under 400hz this speaker before measure it.
But the measurement of 1 speaker and 2 after in free air give me some good reason to not trow away some hundred of euros of speaker allready bought.
when you coupling more than one driver naturally the bad part is going up. Even I cannot understand why are talking about distortion, my ears -and the mic too- doesn't evidence any problem even driven without any HPF filter.
The motor is strong, the upper part is damn loud and clear, how you cannot imagine IMO.

So the horn project will goes on, I've allready spent time and cash over it, so soon it will be out. But now I need to play the 21th of september, and I dont want spent cash to rent things def!

Do you think that tuning a reflex box tuned at around 106hz,could be problematic for this speaker? -maybe finally ill do a reflex, I know i change my plan almost every night since I start to thinking to replace my mids, but the idea is to boost a little bit the lower part of the curve and cooling it due the high power that i will drive into it (1600W into 4ohm each couple of 12")-

all different points of view helps me a lot, so thanks again to all contributors that during this months they endured me! 

Ive learn a lot! -I hope- :D
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odc04r View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2018 at 12:12pm
You're tuning above the driver resonance so it should be possible, why 106Hz exactly? I agree that a vent is not a bad idea at all if you're going to spank them hard. As I think was already mentioned by someone else you may not even use the port if you cross high enough, it will be invisible to the air movement in the box dpeending on its resonance and your crossover point, but it will be a valuable aid to cooling even in this case. Worth a try, it's all about the learning process.
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2018 at 12:38pm

Originally posted by _Natty_ _Natty_ wrote:

are these comment based on a listening or measurement session or just with what is written on paper (ts)?

 

It is based on the TS Parameters you entered in Bass Box Pro. The numbers reveal that the speaker is an efficient driver. The loudspeaker is so efficient the loudspeaker will sacrifice bass in order to attain SPL within the Mid – High region. Such a loudspeaker is excellent for a Straight Mid Horn but, poor for a Reflex enclosure.

 

Originally posted by _Natty_ _Natty_ wrote:

i was so afraid too to push under 400hz this speaker before measure it.

But the measurement of 1 speaker and 2 after in free air give me some good reason to not trow away some hundred of euros of speaker allready bought.

 

This is what many of us go through once we focus on achieving exactly what we want. I have lots of speakers that sit in cardboard cartons that I thought were capable of doing the job until I began measuring their parameters. Once I found the speakers that worked for my requirements, it was obvious all that equalisation I was living on decades ago was not needed anymore.

 

Originally posted by _Natty_ _Natty_ wrote:

when you coupling more than one driver naturally the bad part is going up. Even I cannot understand why are talking about distortion, my ears -and the mic too- doesn't evidence any problem even driven without any HPF filter.

 

 

By the bad part, I would imagine you mean all the frequencies you do not want. That is common when a loudspeaker is used to do a job it is not capable of executing with ease. The end result is finding yourself living on your equaliser in order to fix the problem instead of eliminating the root of the problem.

 

Originally posted by _Natty_ _Natty_ wrote:

The motor is strong, the upper part is damn loud and clear, how you cannot imagine IMO.

 

Everything needed for a straight horn however, not a reflex box.

 

This graph shows you in great detail. This is the most important chart as it tells you how much cabinet gain is coming into play in terms of performance.

 

 

 

 

With every graph you posted the response curves are within a -6 dB range once you approach 100 Hz. With the above graph, you are -12 dB @ 60 Hz. As you can see, the dB loss will only increase once you move further down the frequency range. A -12 dB response is like going from a 5000 watt amplifier to a 300 watt amplifier. 

 

You will be literally living off your equaliser forcing the loudspeaker to play frequencies it has difficulty producing. This will lead to more distortion.   

 

Originally posted by _Natty_ _Natty_ wrote:

So the horn project will goes on, I've allready spent time and cash over it, so soon it will be out. But now I need to play the 21th of september, and I dont want spent cash to rent things def!

 

This is an ideal speaker for a 200 Hz straight horn to play midrange.

 

Originally posted by _Natty_ _Natty_ wrote:

Do you think that tuning a reflex box tuned at around 106hz,could be problematic for this speaker? -maybe finally ill do a reflex, I know i change my plan almost every night since I start to thinking to replace my mids, but the idea is to boost a little bit the lower part of the curve and cooling it due the high power that i will drive into it (1600W into 4ohm each couple of 12")-

 

Tuning it that high will just lead to phase issues with other loudspeakers in your chain. It will be a matter of getting cancellations no matter how you swap the polarity with the only solution is to disconnect the box. You can design sealed box if you must use it. This speaker offers no back wave energy to take advantage of a reflex loading in the enclosure.  

 

This speaker falls in the same class as the FANE Studio 12 L and Electro-voice EVM 12 L. Lots of volume in the mid – upper mid high region but, no bass.

 

 

Best Regards,



Edited by Elliot Thompson - 05 September 2018 at 12:41pm
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odc04r View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2018 at 2:27pm
You're missing the wood for the trees a bit here Eliott. There is no choice in driver, it is a question of finding the best enclosure that can be built in a short period of time.

Also you may be approaching the problem from the wrong end.

Consider that there may be 6dB variation over the bandwidth of such a sealed box, say 150-1000Hz. The key criteria is whether it can integrate at the crossover points in terms of level without EQ. If it can then there is no problem removing gain with a wide notch filter at the bandwitch centre.

The driver has a 7mm xmax (if you trust that figure). It is no slouch, it can take a bit of abuse. I think it could integrate just fine to a cab underneath at 100-150Hz if you appreciate the pros and cons of the enclosure that you build for it.


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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2018 at 4:04pm

Once you tune the box extremely high, you have to take phase into consideration when it is being used in conjunction with other cabinets. Providing you roll-off the cabinet (with the crossover) before the tuning point, there should not be any issues.

 

However, if you tune the cabinet higher than the actual roll-off point of the crossover, you will encounter phase cancellations with the bass bin/sub box. That is the benefit of using a sealed enclosure under the given scenario. It remains within phase preventing phase cancellations when integrating with the bass/bin/sub box.

 

 

If you want to heavily equalise the cabinet to attain a little more low notes, and, lean on xmax you need not worry about phase issues hampering the results.  The xmax will only offer a reduction at the tuning frequency, however all boxes follow the same curvature pre/post the tuning frequency as the sealed enclosure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _Natty_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2018 at 6:55pm
let me better understand:

if im crossing this cab -tuned 106hz- at 150hz 24db/8 could be problematic in phase shift of what? mids or kicks?

the system is aligned with some delay due the phase cancellation beetwen es18bph and super scoop, I played since last session with double reflex 12" and i never heard or seen in measurement phase problems on mids... but honestly i dont know how was tuned the box before because wasnt my project. and different speaker into it too.


i choose 106 for 2 reason:
-first I disign the box with some dimension that i need to fit over kicks and under horns, and the result volume was tuned for 106hz;
-second 106hz -if I well understand- is exactly 1/8 up to the given fs of the speaker, that could be a benefit for the system -again if I well understand-

so I still stuck on a loop and days passess lol
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2018 at 9:16pm

The Blue Graph is a run of the mill Double Eighteen I am using as reference. The Double Eighteen is tuned (fb) @ 35 Hz with a – 3 dB @ 35 Hz.  Pay attention to the correlation of the Blue Graph with your driver sitting in a 3 cubic foot sealed box, a 3 cubic foot box tuned to 37.27 Hertz in addition to, a 3 cubic foot box tuned to 105 Hertz.

 



As you can see, your method (tuned to 105 – 106 Hertz) goes completely out of phase with the Double Eighteen starting from 100 Hertz downwards.

 

 

Make the dimensions anyway you like. Just tune the box lower than the actual crossover point you are aiming to choose or make it a sealed box if you do not want any phase issues with your bass bins and the cabinet you are planning to design.


 

Best Regards,  

  

Elliot Thompson
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_Natty_ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _Natty_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2018 at 10:32pm
thanks a lot, my phase in that region is another story but you let me understand things that i've only read and not really understood

so if I tune the box 2/8 under the cutting freq of the hpf it will be almost no problems of interactions... or I wrong again :D but again for your point of view it will be more about cooling than performance... 


so let me think to the box! 3cft is 84L circa, that is almost the double in terms of wood and needs
I' m looking something like 35*45* something from around 40 cm 

again it will be something like a sealed box with an extension that will be not used due the xover....

far from a rational solution lol
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2018 at 1:33pm

Originally posted by _Natty_ _Natty_ wrote:

thanks a lot, my phase in that region is another story but you let me understand things that i've only read and not really understood.

 

Bass Box Pro has a steep learning curve. Many get frustrated and move on to a program with a higher user base. This usually equates to free software as free software tends to attract more users than software you need to pay for.

 

If you take the time to learn Bass Box Pro, you will reach a stage where you can simulate anything you want within 5 minutes and get exactly what you were aiming for.     

 

Originally posted by _Natty_ _Natty_ wrote:

so if I tune the box 2/8 under the cutting freq of the hpf it will be almost no problems of interactions... or I wrong again :D but again for your point of view it will be more about cooling than performance... 

 

As the graph shows, you will minimise phase issues. You can use the HPF in your crossover at any setting you like above the tuning frequency of the box.  My point is about having no interference when the box you are planning to build is integrating with your bass bin.   

 

Originally posted by _Natty_ _Natty_ wrote:

 

so let me think to the box! 3cft is 84L circa, that is almost the double in terms of wood and needs

I' m looking something like 35*45* something from around 40 cm 

 

again it will be something like a sealed box with an extension that will be not used due the xover....

 

far from a rational solution lol

 

 

The ideal size for that driver is 64 litres. You can use 32 litres and get relatively the same results listed in my previous post.

 

Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
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_Natty_ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _Natty_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2018 at 9:20pm
project seem done... soon the results out ;) thanks again and again to all contributors! I will show you it but after the session...otherwise there is some possibility to change again after some eventual bad comments lol

big up speaker plans!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2018 at 9:56am
Good luck, let us know how you get on.
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_Natty_ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _Natty_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2018 at 12:24pm
as promised, dances done... now results :P :P



I made 2 of these... ultra compact double 12"




I'm not the one that stand on the stack by the way :D

some measurement that show a not very good results as expected from the many commentators:

no Eq filtered from 150hz to 1khz




With Eq but no low-pass filter, sorry its the only screenshoot that ive made with EQ, 3 db points


obviously rush was the main actor on the session, so no time for takin a proper measurement on the stack, all was made by my ears so reads my considerations as tastes and not law :D

-the xover is 180hz, i made a test with a very basic tune (a dub with drum'nbass and a keyboard) after testing 150-160-170-180-190-200hz
-sounds is good, i didnt feel any distortion, the upper part is great, the lower a little less but u can feel all the band with not resonance or wisthles...
-the size of the boxes are optimized for fittin on laying down es18bph as you can see
-the box is too heavy :D we need to move by 2...thats no good;

After the ears test, im conviced that i spent too much time in trying to optimize a part of the stack thats is not so dominat for playing reggae and dub.

The main difference is the sensitivity, they are damn loud! and this is good, because even just a single double can be played with two 2" driver (a little bit 
attenuated) opposite than before that i needs at least 2 boxes.ha

So now that im confident that i can play... im going to the next step, convert it into a straight horn, and having ratio 1:1 from 12" to 2" :D

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