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b&c 21sw low tuned BR

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madam View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: b&c 21sw low tuned BR
    Posted: 26 December 2021 at 8:15pm
Hi,

I wouldlike to build  low tuned BR box for one of the B&C 21 drivers.
Since I have little knowledge of box design, I better ask for some help.

21SW152 or 21SW115 would be better for low freq? (as LOW as possible)
Would use 4 ohm amp and a single drive cab.
I like the design in the linked video, looks solid, and might have pretty small vibrtions on the sides.
I know, must be heavy, but better to have a heavy and good one than a light and bad one.

Can anyone help me out with some info/plan(s), suggestions etc.?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54Qh4X3IhKk

Thanks
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bob4 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2021 at 10:20am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54Qh4X3IhKk




Edited by bob4 - 27 December 2021 at 10:21am
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JonB67 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2021 at 6:19pm
For home cinema?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VECTORDJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2021 at 7:03pm
QSC sells a theater sub with a B and C 21 that appears to be approx 20 cubic foot. Very deep tuning. Check out Their spec sheet.
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madam View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2021 at 8:08pm
I would use it for PA, but I love Detroit electro and other sub-bass heavy materials.

I know about SB-15121.

Any other suggestion? I would better DIY.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2021 at 8:58pm
The lowest i would aim for PA would be 30Hz. What kind of dimensions do you have in mind? Also important, what kind of amp do you have to drive it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cravings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2021 at 10:42pm
There's a user on here called crashpc I think, and he's crashpccz on YouTube who has done a good bit of testing 21s in small reflex cabs
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JonB67 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2021 at 10:18am
Also worth running a spectrum analyzer on the tracks you think are the lowest of what you play and see what their frequency actually is. 

Audacity will do this and is free to download.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMorison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2021 at 1:43pm
+1 to checking exactly how low you need to get first.
Here's an example of just how long you need to make the vent to get down into home cinema type LF ranges - and bear in mind that for PA SPL's you'd probably need an even bigger vent area, further increasing the required length.
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madam View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2021 at 4:58pm
I have a SubPac M2, that have a range of 10-200 Hz.
Some of my favourite tunes makes my teeth rattle and my vision blurry and all of these happens in the really low freq parts.

I wanted to build a few of the Martin Audio WS18X cabinets for the 6 brand new Martin Audio DLS846 drivers I have.
But I just changed my mind, and tought better sell the drivers, and get 1 or 2 even biger and more powerful 21 inch units. 
So I can have lower overall weight, less AMPs, less work.

I love the corner ported Martin designs, I know it is not the best, but results a small front panel, braces the sidepanels, no need to get some tubes, I can get 4 of them for almost free.

BTW if anyone wants up to 6 of the NEW DLS846 drivers, just let me know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2021 at 6:36pm
Whole Body Vibration is a field of intense study - the benefits and issues caused by it are still under dispute, but there is a great paper that explored the thresholds and frequencies for inducing it in human listeners with subwoofers:
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/online/browse.cfm?elib=20383

The whole paper is worth a read, but you can se from the abstract that you 'only' need a linear sound pressure level of 107 dBZ at the listener from subwoofers to induce WBV. Also, the resonance of different body parts was assessed across all test subjects:


Note the x-axis scale is in 25 Hz divisions. The results clearly show that the majority of WBV is induced by frequencies between 60 Hz and 125 Hz, for all body parts. The peaks are resonances and sit at harmonics of the ~60 Hz initial peak.

If 'maximum perceived impact' is the goal, then you'd be better off focusing on designs that really hammer home the upper bass region.

Of course, I'm known for deploying systems with extended LF response. Part of that is based on an agreement I have with my good friend Jo Burton's research which indicates that people perceive a system that plays an octave lower as being louder and of better quality than one which 'only' reaches 30 Hz:
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19179

However, I'm not going to lie to anyone and say that going for this is easy. The rule of thumb is that you need twice as much displacement and energy to achieve the same sound pressure level with an extra octave extension. The boxes need to be bigger - much bigger - and the diaphragms must be very controlled to prevent thermal runaway or cone damage from rocking modes.

The reality is that several well designed 18" reflex boxes with those modern drivers will likely have nearly as much 20 Hz output as a pair of 21" tuned super low, but with way more output in the more useful upper bass region. It's also more flexible as you can bring the number of boxes needed for the show.

If you feel that you want or need a dedicated infra box later, then look at adding a set of dual 21". But be warned, you'll spend a lot of cash on drivers, wood, amps and transport to keep up at concert levels... as an example, we have some custom dual 21" tapped horns that I designed for just this purpose. Similar to the TH221 from Danley, but DIY because it was hard to justify the equivalent cost of twelve more TH118XL just to hit these lower frequencies without proof that it won more business.

Four of them keeps up with twelve TH118XL playing everything 30 Hz up, which is impressive - except for the fact that once you put those four boxes in a van, there's no space or weight limit left for anything else. They're 250 kg each.

I've also worked with a 40" Powersoft M-Force box from Traction Sound as part of my time with the AUDINT sound art crew. That's a reflex box tuned to 16 Hz, the size of a small car, and it's loaded with cutting edge linear motor technology costing many thousands of £££. It's great, but it's not enough for a concert alone. Far from it. My tapped horns are much more efficient than a ported cabinet at those frequencies, so you'd need the same or more physical volume to achieve the same.



Stick with what you have, and design a big dual 18" reflex with an oversized, flared port in the middle. There's plenty of examples out there. Use a proper modern DSP amp with excursion, thermal and peak limiters to drive it to the fullest. Then revisit later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2021 at 8:11pm
Originally posted by madam madam wrote:

I have a SubPac M2, that have a range of 10-200 Hz.
Some of my favourite tunes makes my teeth rattle and my vision blurry and all of these happens in the really low freq parts.

The software is free. Its not hard to do. Why build based on what you guess is happening when you can see the facts laid out for you by the software?
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