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Best SOUNDING 18 inch. in a 150 litre enclousure.

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Crashpc View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 August 2015 at 3:44pm
Best sounding?
B&C speakers from top down to 18PS76, with some LXPXXX RCFs in between...
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ArthurG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArthurG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2015 at 2:07am
Originally posted by Crashpc Crashpc wrote:

Best sounding?
B&C speakers from top down to 18PS76, with some LXPXXX RCFs in between...
sorry no.
For example, 18TBX100 is very popular but very average sounding IMHO. and of of noise from spiders at moderate excursion. And I don't even talk about the false advertised power handling and totally of the chart T&S parameters... Confused

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2015 at 8:40am
Originally posted by djeddie djeddie wrote:

Also the Fane Sovereign 18-800 sims very well in a 140 - 160 litre cab.


Got two as new in the for sale sectionEmbarrassed
It's everything, not everythink!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PinHole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2015 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by ArthurG ArthurG wrote:

For example, 18TBX100 is very popular but very average sounding IMHO. and of of noise from spiders at moderate excursion. And I don't even talk about the false advertised power handling and totally of the chart T&S parameters... Confused

Arthur, in your opinion, what would you suggest as better sounding but similar budget alternative to  18TBX100 from B&C range. 
Signature is important. So I always write something in this dedicated field.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2015 at 4:13pm
ArthurG:
While I cannot discart your note about noise, I had not encountered ANY problems with B&C speakers (many models from 12 to 18") when mounted in enclosure and used for flat tuning or -3db drop in lower bass for lower tuning and longer bass extension. Only hi-fi freaks tuning this speakers below 30Hz, while not getting really high SPL to mask these noises effectively, can have serious problems with this. I can´t blame them, but the speaker is not built with this in mind.
RCF is definitely better with this with most speakers.

But for other things, I see no serious flaw.
It sounds awesome. Measured TS parameters are usually 4-10% worse compared to specs, but for the price these are still very good and very usable. I have some fast measurements of some B&C speakers, and these are quite good, almost up to specs. Also other people measuring this have the same data (posted online). So I´m not sure what you´ve got, but mine is good, and I´m happy to come back and buy more B&C. Especially compared to RCF, now in different price range.


P.S.: I don´t sell any speakers.
Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2015 at 7:31pm
BMS :-)
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArthurG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2015 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by PinHole PinHole wrote:

Arthur, in your opinion, what would you suggest as better sounding but similar budget alternative to  18TBX100 from B&C range. 
first of all, BIG disclaimer: 
I'm professional speaker/driver designer with my own factories and I sell my products in OEM market and also a bit in retail. However, I never ever talk about my products in public forums to try to be as neutral as possible and to give honest good advice. Of course, you may think I'm biased and I understand it. 

so...

Right now (mid 2015), RCF LF18X401 is difficult to beat in the category. Exceptional cooling system, performance matching the specs (klippel measurement is impressive) and great sounding.

Please note that I don't have time nor resources to test all products available. Usually, my customers tell me that they want to "match" or "beat" this XXX model. Most of the time, my customers bring me competitive products to test and A/B.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArthurG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2015 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by Crashpc Crashpc wrote:

ArthurG:
While I cannot discart your note about noise, I had not encountered ANY problems with B&C speakers (many models from 12 to 18") when mounted in enclosure and used for flat tuning or -3db drop in lower bass for lower tuning and longer bass extension. Only hi-fi freaks tuning this speakers below 30Hz, while not getting really high SPL to mask these noises effectively, can have serious problems with this. I can´t blame them, but the speaker is not built with this in mind.
RCF is definitely better with this with most speakers.

But for other things, I see no serious flaw.
It sounds awesome. Measured TS parameters are usually 4-10% worse compared to specs, but for the price these are still very good and very usable. I have some fast measurements of some B&C speakers, and these are quite good, almost up to specs. Also other people measuring this have the same data (posted online). So I´m not sure what you´ve got, but mine is good, and I´m happy to come back and buy more B&C. Especially compared to RCF, now in different price range.


P.S.: I don´t sell any speakers.
Well maybe my samples had a problem and I don't test too many B&C woofers, but 18TBX100s that my customer bring me were not good. They were 1000W 2011 models and my measurements showed T&S parameters far from datasheet. From memory BL was around 19 , Qts around 0.45, and it burnt a bit after one hour at 900W... We were so surprised that we bought another one and it was the same...
Again, maybe it was bad luck with a problematic batch and since B&C 18" may have improved, but last woofer I have tested from them is the 21SW150 and it was bad too (big issue with spider compliance and very poor efficiency compared to the claimed specs)
On the other side, B&C HFs are the reference and I only have good things to say...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2015 at 6:58pm
Wow that is pretty sick! I´ve never encountered anything like this with B&C. Hope I stay on the lucky side. People around me measured BL around 23,2 and Qts around 0,4 on the 18TBX100. That´s about okay for higher volume bassreflex and great bass extension for moderate power. And it indeed sounded good for the purpose. My fast measurements of some 12"-18" B&C speakers also suggest good values. So I feel very sorry for you, and I wonder what´s happening.
Here´s measurement of one seller: http://www.prodance.cz/data/attachments/mereni_BC_18TBX100.pdf

I have my 18SW115 for some low level signal measurements, and it looks very cool. BL is again lower than marketed, but still very respectable number of 28.
Here is some Klippel measurement:
http://postimg.org/image/3s7yidkz3/
and here is LF18X401
http://postimg.org/image/5uqaqwb51/

The RCF driver looks like poor sibling here.
I can´t figure it out, where is the problem. It´s weird that we experience so different results. But it happened, so I see reason for your attitude.

And you´re right. I´m even happier for their drivers. Way better sounding in my opinion (compared to competition), and some graphs show it too.
Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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ArthurG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArthurG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2015 at 7:38pm
I don't know 18SW115 but the klippel curves look excellent. 
BL of 28 is for 4 or 8 ohm version ? 28 for 8ohm is acceptable but very very bad if it's 4 ohm (I'm asking because your klippel file shows SW115_4)
However you can't compare a 18"with 4" coil and ferrite magnet woofer that goes for 225 euros (at teamaudio.fr) to another one that has 4.5" coil, Neodymium magnet and cost twice the price (425 euros in same shop). Not the same category !
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Crashpc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2015 at 9:01pm
Don´t you have it backwards?
BL of 28 is good value anyway, but while for 8Ohms it´s about good, for 4Ohm it is AWESOME, and it indicates very powerful motor. See B&C IPAL series of speakers. These are very low impedance, and kinda low-ish BL factor, but these speakers are WAY stronger than what BL number would suggest, because this number doesn´t say much without context. More telling and usable force factor formula is "BL^2/RE".
Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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ArthurG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArthurG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2015 at 9:26pm
oh sorry, I messed it up Embarrassed
of course, you are right, if it's for 4ohm it's incredible !
A good way to improve BL is to use split winding voice coil. I did a recent 18" for a customer this way and I saw BL improved by nearly 20% compared to standard single wire (with other motor refinements too)

Anyway, now I want to get one of this 18SW115 Shocked
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