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Best sub bass boxes for Pd 1850 |
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mk2_ginger_biscuit69 
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Joined: 03 November 2008 Location: Brighton Status: Offline Points: 7801 |
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 Posted: 26 February 2011 at 2:36pm |
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in terms of xover, either/or!, only problem overlapping is getting the phase and delays perfect between the different cabinets. All reflex front loaded, and there will be less issues as it will all be roughly the same, but once you go mixing bandpass you will start getting issues (although i believe you can flip the phase of an X1 180degrees to sort this?). Either way theres never a right or wrong, experiment and see what works best for you.
Deltamax do have very harsh screamy topend, brilliant for cracking through live rock etc, not so good for smoother stuff, good bit of eq and they are tameable. |
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''Remember that the object of a subwoofer is to enhance the output of your main speakers, not overpower it''
''Dubstep - an elongated electronic fart'' |
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Junior Jackson
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Joined: 21 August 2007 Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Posted: 26 February 2011 at 6:38pm |
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That makes sense, I would love to hear about phase reversing X1's on sub if anyone has done it and the technical reasoning behind it, I have always associated reverse phasing as a bad thing (as it obviously can be if one channel is out of phase with another..).
If people run 4 way, what crossover points between sub and bass are you using? It is an interesting one as most crossover points are determined by driver / enclosure design etc whereas my 3x15 kicks can go down sub low and an X1 will play higher than I intend using it.. Chris.
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Junior Jackson
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Posted: 27 February 2011 at 2:11pm |
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Also, following on the full reflex system theory, what about 1850 super scoops?
Scoops haven't been mentioned in this thread, although obviously not a 'traditional' ported reflex design, there shouldn't be any timing or phase issues as they are front loaded?? The issue with scoops for me is their size for storage and transport (and lifting the monumentally heavy GAE 351s and Deltamax on top of them..) but if they would be the best box for sub then I would be happy to go that route.. I know about the freq. dip issue with scoops and I have built a pair of Rog's design but my friend runs them with other random scoops and swears they destroy all the other scoops he has (which in fairness includes some decent boxes and some chipboard ones which were actually shipped from Jamaica about ten years ago and now smell of weetabix and contain more screws than wood :) ) Not trying to start another scoop vs non scoop debate just interested in pros and cons of running them with the rest of my system.. Thanks, Chris.
Edited by Junior Jackson - 27 February 2011 at 5:05pm |
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Meat
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Joined: 05 June 2009 Location: Manc Status: Offline Points: 1514 |
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Posted: 27 February 2011 at 3:03pm |
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Overlapping bass and kick once time aligned is pretty normal.
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Don't test the champignon sound
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fuzzylogic
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Joined: 02 November 2006 Status: Offline Points: 2429 |
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Posted: 27 February 2011 at 5:20pm |
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Yes you will need to phase reverse the X1s but normally is done in the cab by swapping the wiring. I wasn't going to mention it but Hogs ,Hogs Hogs if your not anti scoop.That said they sound very different from normal scoops...much more refined and less scoopy!Untouchable with correct setups.IMO.  |
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NEIGHBOURHOOD SOUNDSYSTEM Infinitely baffled. |
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studio45
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Joined: 16 October 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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Posted: 27 February 2011 at 5:37pm |
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Well it depends on what frequency you run the scoops to to say whether there will be any timing issues, or rather to say that scoops have built in timing issues, and they can be mitigated by careful choice of crossover point and use of delay.
At some point between 60 and 120hz, the output of a scoop transitions between coming mostly from the horn, and coming mostly from the driver. Therefore there is a kind of continuum of effective group delay as measured right in front of the cab, over these frequencies, with the measured delay becoming larger the lower you go until a maximum is reached when 100% of the sound is coming out of the horn. This is what causes the measurable dip in scoop response, which occurs when the driver's front radiating output and horn output are maximally out of phase, and similar in level with each other, at some certain delay and frequency value. SO if you use a scoop up into the mid-bass under reflex low-mids, you should not need to delay the other system components and you just have to put up with the sub being slightly behind the kick. If you use them for sub only, you will want to delay everything else to compensate for the time it takes the sound to get out of the horn, and perhaps phase reverse them as well as you are dealing with waves emitted form the back of the driver. I would hazard a guess that the Hog, with the driver in the mouth of a 25% longer horn than usual, manages to avoid ever having the horn and driver emitting the same frequency at similar levels very much out of phase. I've heard them quite a bit and they have a very smooth response. RE your comment that delays freak DJ's out. How much delay are you using there? It shoudn't really be that audible.....
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Studio45 - Repairs & Building Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA
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cravings
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Joined: 30 January 2007 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 7442 |
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Posted: 27 February 2011 at 9:22pm |
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i still haven't worked out definitive settings for my X1s relative to my turbo bins (or anything else). ultradrive and mic has never given me any consistent results.. did them by ear a while ago with test tones.. i just don't know. someday i'll have a laptop and a decent external card and will have a go with some proper software...
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Junior Jackson
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Posted: 02 March 2011 at 11:50pm |
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Thanks for all the comments and opinions :)
Can someone explain the advantage (or necessity) of phase inverting X1's? Is this purely to align the freq. output from the rear of the cone (rather than the front) with the rest of the system and if so why? The rear of the cone has a larger enclosure before the same size port as the front of the cone, does this give the rear of the cone an 'advantage'?? Sorry if the question is worded badly, I'm learning about enclosure design just not fast enough :) I really like the compact hog scoop design, I had set my heart of knocking together four X1's quickly and relatively easily, the thought of all those angles makes me go a bit wobbly.. :) It comes down to is the extra effort (and cost) of building four hog scoops over building four X1's going to be worth it?? I know it's all subjective but everyone seems to rave about the hogs.. Thanks, Chris. |
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bass*en*mass
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Joined: 03 September 2009 Location: "unknown" Status: Offline Points: 4009 |
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Posted: 03 March 2011 at 12:08am |
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you dont need to phase invert x1s, just delay the kicks/tops accordingly (by ear and sinus test tones imo)
phase reverse is needed for cabs where the sounds comes from the back of the cone only, for example bandpasshorns like es18s. compared to normal frontloaded cabs the sound would be 180° out if you dont reverse it. imagine just the cones, the signal pushes them for/backwards, if one cone moves forward but the other is physically reversed the waves will cancel each other... hard to explain for me, have a read :) one thing you should keep in mind x1 wont work well with just tops ontop, you need a kick cab in between hogs might work a little better with big fullrange tops ontop crossover freq. are a little different, chose what suits your needs and what you have got allready! |
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Nitz V1505
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Joined: 16 September 2009 Location: UXBRIDGE Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Posted: 03 March 2011 at 6:25am |
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Have you considered a mini scoop? Try the MS-18 mkIII by Mr Staiper who is also the creator of the Hog scoop. Other mini plans like the MS-18 have had great reviews and some mini's have even shook up sounds using full scoops!!! Also what music do you play?
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LET THE BASS ROLL LIKE THUNDER
& THE TOPS LIKE LIGHTNING..... |
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fuzzylogic
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Posted: 03 March 2011 at 9:54am |
If you can't delay then you need to phase inverse to align the output.Defo not just for bandpass horns...
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NEIGHBOURHOOD SOUNDSYSTEM Infinitely baffled. |
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mk2_ginger_biscuit69
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Posted: 03 March 2011 at 2:13pm |
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as rog origionally said, the X1 is near enough 180degrees out of phase with a front loaded design by design default, the simplist way to align it to the rest would be a 180degree phase shift thus no delays etc then needed.
If the other cabinets in the stack require delay then that will also be needed and you are in LMS territory to get things right. In your case though as a front loaded rig, 180degree inverted X1's 1850 loaded could work. Im impressed by 1851 loaded hogs, but not heard on normal music so cant judge on their sound! |
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''Remember that the object of a subwoofer is to enhance the output of your main speakers, not overpower it''
''Dubstep - an elongated electronic fart'' |
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bass*en*mass wrote: