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Bill Fitzmaurice - Omnitop 12s (built by Insomnia)

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jethrocker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jethrocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 10:24pm
Several of the Turbo top boxes are available in tight 20/25deg dispersion.. good for 4 a side and do-able with 6 I guess... 
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mylesound View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mylesound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 10:34pm
I land up having local sounds provide a system in which i mix down
but even in this situation we end up lacking in the top end
16 TSW's tho
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Disco Stu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Disco Stu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 10:45pm
Why dont you crossfire then?

Stu
All you need to know is:
Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output

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Jake_Fielder View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jake_Fielder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 9:35am
Originally posted by Disco Stu Disco Stu wrote:

Originally posted by Jake_Fielder Jake_Fielder wrote:


My aim is to have the ported horns i have designed on bass up to 180Hz then i want a midtop box to go on top. I recon i'd need two of my bass cabs per midtop, but once i have over 2 bass cabs perside i'll need more topend but it wont be tall enough to stack and i cant have two on a pole can I? and i assume i cant splay them - they need to be on top of each other with those peizos right?

 


1) Id see what they sound like before you look at 180Hz as a crossover point, I dont think anyone has had much success crossing a folded horn higher than 140Hz and the 2x12s of these will be very strong to that frequency, the 1x12s might get a bit overdriven under 200Hz if you drive them to hell, but the 2x Bass should give enough SPL to compensate for that.

2) You can have 2 cabs on a stand strapped together, I will be where necessary. They are very light, all Neo drivers and 12mm plywood, Easily a 1 handed lift.

3) I wouldn't recommend splaying any cabs unless they have very tight dispersion. With these being about 80-90H especially not. The HFs of the tweeters integrate better if you stack vertically. If the audience is close, which they can be in clubs or bars, crossfire the cabs, this doesnt necessarily require 2 stands, just get a T bar for your speaker stands and sit them side by side facing towards each other at 90 degrees.

If you can haul and know you can use 2x12s then I would go with them. I wasnt sure that I would need that much and so I went with the 4 singles instead. VERY glad I did so far.

I prefer to have a mid top that can go as low as possible to carry as much of the lead vocal without splitting it between two sources and getting an unbalanced level.

For DJ the situation may be different but I still like to carry the sounds that are not bass and kick through the mains rather than the subs.

Folds = filtering no matter how you look at it, thats why Bandpass cabs are best below 100Hz as well. Vocals through ports? Does a megaphone ring a bell?

Stu
 
I wouldnt have thought vocals go down to 180Hz?
as 200Hz is a 171cm wavelength, and my horn is 85cm with one ~100 degree fold i thought it might be ok up that high...? but anyway this isnt the thread for talking about my design.
 
Those bill fitz cabs seem ok, i think i'll look into them further when im ready to look at mid/hi's, that will be a long thime though!
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Disco Stu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Disco Stu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by Jake_Fielder Jake_Fielder wrote:


I wouldnt have thought vocals go down to 180Hz?



as 200Hz is a 171cm wavelength, and my horn is 85cm with one ~100 degree fold i thought it might be ok up that high...? but anyway this isnt the thread for talking about my design.

 

Those bill fitz cabs seem ok, i think i'll look into them further when im ready to look at mid/hi's, that will be a long thime though!


Oops you would be wrong, very wrong, the lower end of the male vocal can go down to 80Hz or lower.
Check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzafJqw0xHw

The bass solo at 00:34 is a low F which is around 44Hz

The loud low B in this recording is around 70Hz. I can sing about 90Hz myself but not very loud.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WpD2Cspn6g

By not having this low range in the mid tops your mid tops can end up sounding thin. For a live vocal this can be terrible. For a recorded female vocal or high male vocal its usually ok, but this is why I bang on about having the vocals in the mid cab, which is up at head height.

Stu
All you need to know is:
Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output

My acts:
www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience
www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches
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Jake_Fielder View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jake_Fielder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 3:00pm
Its unrealistic to expect a raised mid cab to drop to 90Hz though, without being massive, and by dropping to 90Hz its not really a midcab anymore!
 
Whats the solution?


Edited by Jake_Fielder - 14 April 2008 at 3:01pm
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Disco Stu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Disco Stu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Jake_Fielder Jake_Fielder wrote:

Its unrealistic to expect a raised mid cab to drop to 90Hz though, without being massive, and by dropping to 90Hz its not really a midcab anymore!
 

Whats the solution?


The Xtro does
The DR250/280 do
Most arrays drop down to 100Hz.

But that is why I have problems with some other midcabs, because they just dont drop low enough to provide a useful crossover point to match with a 1 way bass cab.

The problem area is in cabs where a) the bass is not high enough to make ear level, hence the bottom of the vocal range is aurally separated from the tops. Having heard this phenomenon a lot I can tell you that I think it sounds awful.

If you have a bass stack thats high enough this is not so much of a problem since the mid tops sit on top of the stack and the upper bass cab is high enough that its at ear level. So if you do, probably no need to worry about it.

The solution for a lot of folks who dont run "stacks" they run subs together and then mid tops on sticks or stands, is to run the mid tops a little lower than they otherwise would, maybe down to 100Hz and then run the subs with a small overlap. The problems you get with frequency cancellation are less of a problem when the sources are separated.

For live work another alternative is aux fed subs.

Remember that crossover points are not absolute, if you have 100Hz crossover and 126dB of bass vs 120dB of midtop, with a 12dB slope, it will be 150Hz before the two levels even out.

Stu
All you need to know is:
Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output

My acts:
www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience
www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches
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Jake_Fielder View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jake_Fielder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 4:14pm
To be honest an Xtro is not the sort of thing i would like to be lifting onto a stand!
 
I will probably have a stack high enough to put midtops on eventually but i wouldnt want to have to use it all the time, i need a soloution for small gigs aswell. This is difficult!
 
(cheers for your helP)
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Disco Stu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Disco Stu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 4:17pm
Reflex then, less of an SPL jump at lower frequencies.
All you need to know is:
Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output

My acts:
www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience
www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches
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Tony Insanity View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Insanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2008 at 8:51pm
Why piezo's? Smile
.....you might also look for her companion, a large Chinese rabbit, who is easy to spot since he is only standing on his hind feet in the shade of a cinnamon tree...
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Jake_Fielder View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jake_Fielder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2008 at 9:48pm
Check bill fitz forum, i think theres a thread explaining it.
 
Some people recon they're sh*t, some recon they're good when used right, i dont have an opinion as i havent heard them in this arrangement.
 
Billfitz likes to crossfire them and cuts the horn down to make the radiating elements closer for coupling.
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Disco Stu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Disco Stu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by Tony Insanity Tony Insanity wrote:

Why piezo's? Smile


Why not?

Before you ask, there have been pretty exhaustive tests made by myself and others on the BFM forum on Piezos. I personally listened to the different models to see which ones sound best on their own and in groups.

Others have tried Piezos vs compression drivers, and the result was that unless you pick a compression driver over at least £130, and couple it to an ideal horn, and then throw shedloads of EQ at it, a bank of Piezos will sound better to the ear. The multiple elements cause a natural flattening of response, while lowering the vertical dispersion angle which under most circumstances is a good thing. Less EQ is required, less amps and power is required, and far less money is spent.

BFM sound is all about if it sounds good go with it, whether its got perfect polars or waterfalls or not isn't the main goal over there. Its that the cabs create an efficiency increase (sometimes extremely) over a reflex cab (that most people were previously using). Because they are all horn loaded IMO you get increased fidelity from the lower distortion figure, and the fact that they are so cheap to build is a bonus. Thats what its all about. Beyond that you can get very serious and technical about things but the price jump (and size and weight jump) between a BFM cab and something that has more engineering gone into it is so great that the allure is to good to resist for most people.

Stu
All you need to know is:
Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output

My acts:
www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience
www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches
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