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Birch alternative

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Heathrow_B_line View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heathrow_B_line Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2008 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by Calculus Calculus wrote:

Originally posted by mykey mykey wrote:

You guys keep going on about birchAngry
 
if its going on the road without covers then use a multi laminate ply, 9plys or more would be better
 
if you cant get this then use either MDF or HDF and make your self some coversWinksimple
 
stop being a bunch of tarts please and following each other like sheep 
 
LOLLOLLOL That's just not the speakerplans way though... Once somone said something and somones agreed then it becomes part of the speakerplans bible...
 
Ps i used  spruce ply to make a very lightweight g-sub... and even though it aint the hardest of wood it sounds alright and after a few coats of paint it's pretty tough.. I'm not suggesting using this to anyone. just saying i'm quite happy because it's a really easy lift.
 
I have made mmy mt121 from spruce and they are very light.  the only problem is that the outer layer is not as good a finish as birch.  for my next midtops i think a birch faced spruce ply would be exactly what i need...  nice finish and very light.
 
for bass i can see that spruce may not be ideal.  Personally if i couldnt get birch i would use mdf, its sounds better then birch and if you take care of them during loading in/out you could make them last.  as im too poor to have roadies i usually get stuff loaded without any bumps/thumps. all future cabs i build for myself i will use mdf... i live the sound of it and i can live with the weight
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stephenwconcannon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2008 at 7:52pm
MDF ?? i though using MDF was a definite no no, not quite sure of the reasons just what i have found through sifting through posts...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heathrow_B_line Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2008 at 8:18pm
it doesnt hold glues/screws as well as birch, and is heavy but everyone is an agreement it sounds better. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kpippen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2008 at 9:59pm
Hmmm,...I wonder how MDF would hold-up to the elements if coated with line-X?...
 
 
 
It's starting to become a popular coating for cabs in the US...
 
Kev
 


Edited by kpippen - 05 January 2008 at 10:06pm
turn on, tune in, drop out


Hey Nipper,...we gotta have more cowbell!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2008 at 5:43am
Originally posted by Heathrow_B_line Heathrow_B_line wrote:

it doesnt hold glues/screws as well as birch, and is heavy but everyone is an agreement it sounds better. 
Not if they're built right,you could use HDF its alot harder.
 
If your going to put them on the road without covers use ply on the external pannels and MDF on the internal pannelsWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2008 at 5:45am
Originally posted by stephenwconcannon stephenwconcannon wrote:

MDF ?? i though using MDF was a definite no no, not quite sure of the reasons just what i have found through sifting through posts...
Was they written by Toxic, don't listen to any more B------t then
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calculus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2008 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by mykey mykey wrote:

Originally posted by ToNy MoNtAnA ToNy MoNtAnA wrote:

Originally posted by stephenwconcannon stephenwconcannon wrote:

Nowhere in a 100mile radius sells birch, just different types of ply and shuttering ply but no birch ply. What other ply wood can be used (for super scoops)?


18mm marine plywood.

Lighter,waterproof, but void free usually.
You want it to be heavy not lite, otherwise your cab will go walk about Shocked
 
never had a problem of my g-sub going walkabout... after all it has two 18"s in it...
Supose someone could nick it easier.... LOL
But like HBL said it doesn't have the best of finishes but a bit of sanding filling and painting sorted that.
Always a compromise, You can't have everything...

Where would you put it all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stephenwconcannon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2008 at 5:30pm
right im gonna go for MDF on the inside then shuttering ply outside i think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heathrow_B_line Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2008 at 11:08pm
not directly relevent but interesting none the less...
 
In general:-

Birch faced ply: -
This is plywood faced with a birch wood veneer. The internal laminates are minimum grade spruce and birch in alternate layers.

Birch ply:-
All laminates are birch. Face layers are also birch. Standard number of plies for 18mm thickness = 13

MDF:-
Chips about 20mm in length from either softwoods or hardwoods are thermally softened before being past through a machine which mechanically refines the chips into bundles of fibres or individual fibres. These fibres are mixed with a synthetic resin then pressed into a sheet. The fibres are randomly arranged within the material. This mat is then pressed again whilst subjected to elevated temperatures and pressures to cure the resin and produce a sheet of the desired thickness.


Mechanical properties:-
In laymen’s terms, strength is an indication of how much load a material will withstand before failure and stiffness is how much the material will flex, or deform, when subjected to a given load.

We are not really interested in the ultimate strength of our sub boxes as they seldom fail, so the material strength is of little use. However, we are interested in how much a box will flex. Therefore, we will concentrate on the stiffness of sub box materials.

Eb = Modulus of elasticity in bending.
Eb describes how stiff a material is under bending. The higher the number, the stiffer the material is and the less it will flex. It allows us to easily compare the stiffness of different materials.

The following properties are all based on 18mm sheet materials:

Birch faced ply:-
Eb = 2700 N/mm^2 perpendicular to grain
4600 N/mm^2 parallel to grain
Density = 11.6 kg/m^2

Birch ply:-
Eb = 3400 N/mm^2 perpendicular to grain
4600 N/mm^2 parallel to grain
Density = 12.4 kg/m^2

MDF:-
Eb = 2200 N/mm^2
Density = 10.8 kg/m^2

It can be seen from the above, that the plywood properties are directional depending on the orientation of the grain. For the purposes of this analysis, we can assume the stiffest properties as sub box panels are generally supported on all four edges. MDF is a homgeneous material and the mechanical properties are identical in any direction.

Comparing the Eb values given above it can be seen that the birch based plywood is over twice as stiff as the MDF. Therefore, if two identically sized sub boxes were fabricated, one from 18mm MDF and the other from 18mm birch ply, the MDF box would flex twice as much as the birch ply box.

That’s quite an improvement from simply using a different material for your enclosure.

Thickness vs. Material stiffness:-

Birch ply is expensive and MDF is relatively cheap.

It’s often asked, ‘Do I use 18mm Birch ply or 25mm MDF for my new sub box?’

As discussed above, birch ply is a stiffer material than MDF. It’s just over twice as stiff. However, the thickness of the material has a far greater effect on the overall stiffness than the actual material stiffness.

Example:-

It is common to ‘double up’ on the baffle thickness of a sub box from 18mm to 36mm.

You’d imagine that by doubling the thickness, you’d double the stiffness and effectively half the flex of the baffle. However, this couldn’t be further from the truth…

By doubling the thickness from 18mm to 36mm you in fact increase the stiffness by a factor of 8. The 36mm baffle will be 8 times stiffer than the single 18mm baffle.

This is derived from the second moment of area of the section given by Ixx = (bd^3)/12

Where d is the depth, or thickness in this example. The thickness value is cubed to arrive at the section stiffness.

For the full increase in stiffness to be exploited, the baffles should be glued together so the two layers act together in unison under load.

A double 18mm baffle is 8 times stiffer than a single 18mm baffle.

A triple 18mm baffle is 27 times stiffer than a single 18mm baffle.

A quadruple 18mm baffle is 64 times stiffer than a single 18mm baffle.

And so on….

By simply increasing the thickness of the material the stiffness overall is increased dramatically. Remember that birch ply is twice as stiff as MDF. However, the original question was ‘Do I use 25mm MDF or 18mm birch ply for my box?’

In this case, the increased thickness of the 25mm MDF will far outweigh the increased material stiffness of the 18mm birch ply. The panels of the 25mm MDF box will be 28% stiffer overall than the 18mm birch ply box.

In general, the thickness of the material is king to minimise flex. The thickness will increase the stiffness far more than a stiffer material would. However, by doubling the thickness you also double the weight of the box.

For ultimate performance, the stiffer birch material should be used in multiple layers. You will then get the best of both worlds. But it is worth keeping in mind that double the layers of material and the weight of the box will also double.

As always in car audio we are faced with a compromise. Box stiffness vs. weight vs. cost.

The choice is yours.

But for someone constructing a simple 18mm thick enclosure, Birch ply will be twice as stiff and only a fraction heavier than MDF. I know which one I’d go for and I'd double the baffle too whilst I was at it.
 
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