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Bought funktion-one 8" drivers. Advice on usage

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rogerharris View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 April 2011 at 5:14pm
Just scooped pair of funktion-one ax88 drivers 8" at low price from well know hire firm with only half day research to decide. Hope i have not made mistake, Although i have strange vintage Hifi... these are somewhat exotic PA drivers for me, so i thought i would need to ask about them in advanced section.

In principle they sound great , hi frequency PA volumes with a hifi leaning. No idea what the reality of them is.

Are these high mids a big player in the almost loud hifi of the Funktion-One gear ? Apparently its that they made this high mid 8" paper driver to go up to 7k with a massive sensitivity so no CD required except a hi super tweeter.

I will use them in a 2.5k small club rig trying to get a nice hifi sound in top frequencies anyway (ok i know hifi means quality in entire range). Using two 18xb for sub (running at 600rms)and undecided on kick and supertweet. Have two 15" eminence LF and two APT80 or Behringer CD's to do for now.


1. The Funktion-one 8" drivers have a screw in middle for phase plug, so i am guessing knocking one together is essential for function, or can they operate without a phase plug, but limit the high cross to say 5k. I can only try but do now want to blow these ?

2. The horn loading aspect i presume i can do without that unless worried over coverage or not ?

3. How many watts should i put into these ? Info varies that their RMS is 160 to 200. But what is optimal if was cranking the rest of PA system to match ?

4. seeing as their final figure of a pair in an Ax88 with hi cone is 6 ohm I am guessing they are 16 ohm each ?

5. what freq range would you cross them at, in a non horn enclosure, purely on their own merits as a speaker ?

Any other info, precautions regarding these ? Yes its newbie question, but i presume advanced driver.


Thanks


RH
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smithers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smithers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2011 at 5:20pm
Hmmm, i'll be the first to say you might have purchased a dead horse.

the drivers will only work and sound like F1, in F1 boxes....

the driver is designed from the ground up to work with the AX88 phaseplug and horn, without those i cant see it being anything more than a pretty run of the mill 8" mid driver (with a hole in the dustcap)

Someone may well chime and say otherwise though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spesh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2011 at 5:37pm
I'm inclined to agree with smithers.

There's a chance you could build/design a box that they would work in, but they're really specifically for one product.


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rogerharris View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2011 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by smithers smithers wrote:

Hmmm, i'll be the first to say you might have purchased a dead horse.

the drivers will only work and sound like F1, in F1 boxes....

the driver is designed from the ground up to work with the AX88 phaseplug and horn, without those i cant see it being anything more than a pretty run of the mill 8" mid driver (with a hole in the dustcap)

Someone may well chime and say otherwise though.


I did get these at the price for a run of the mill driver, however they do intrigue me as to the aspect of not having to use a compression driver.  A run of the mill 8" driver cant sound good up to 7k. Plugs and horns are not exactly complicated or technically difficult to knock together, but i was curious if anybody has technical knowledge of this driver to tell me how it can sound fine as a tweeter with such high sensitivity ?

I understand that the voice coils, cones of these are  custom designed to facilitate this and the custom driver funktion-one asked for to make a paper cone a tweeter, is far more of an expense  than moulding a waveguide. If anybody has any information on how the driver achieves this clarity, sensitivity and range it might be informative.

I get the idea that the plug is like splitting the cone into several smaller cones, but what role does the waveguide play in the actual sound quality regardless of dispersion ?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2011 at 8:31pm
I mite take them off your hands if you don't get the results your looking for
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2011 at 8:45pm

Originally posted by Chris M Chris M wrote:

I mite take them off your hands if you don't get the results your looking for


Ok..il keep that in mind . I quite like the idea of  having a 2.5k rig that sounds like hi fi and effortless to listen to if practical.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote studio45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2011 at 8:53pm
I would guess it has a very light moving assembly, and a comparatively strong motor. I would expect to find a copper cap or ring on the pole piece for the purpose of reducing distortion. You'd also want a low inductance coil to allow more HF to be reproduced though I'm not sure specifically how that would be achieved.
By the way these drivers -correct me if i'm wrong - only play up to 5770Hz in the Res 4 boxes, not 7k, so the response may not be totally flat all the way up, otherwise the Res 4 crossover point would be the same as the AX88. I mean, my fairly ordinary Beyma 6MI100's play up to 10k totally fine, as measured with SMAART, but only if you're stood directly in line with them - any more than 10 degrees off axis = flat to 3k max. 
That tells me that a LOT of what phase plugs do is spread out spatially the HF generated by the driver in such a way as not to allow it to destructively interfere off-axis as it does from the bare driver. The effect of reducing the throat chamber volume, which is an acoustic lowpass filter, I think is less important. Basically in my experience a lot of unremarkable drivers can play up into quite a high range but what they cannot do is play that whole range with the same wide dispersion, and that's where phase plugged horns come in.

Now the fact is that no-one's got a mould for the AX88 horns, no-one's measured one and drawn a plan, and no bugger's going to either, so we're not really going to be able to help you recreate or clone it. However if you're up for a lot of trial and error and spending excessive money on fibreglass and resin and ruining several sets of clothes, we're right behind you. And if you figure out how to get Hornresp to model accurately to 7k, do let us know LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rich_gale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2011 at 8:54pm
rubbish about the drivers being useless because of being designed for the cabinet.  the drivers may have been custom made, but the cabinet with obviously have been designed around the driver.  horn/phase plug or not, these drivers will still go up to whatever f1 have advertised.  The plug is just there to allow the horn to play high without cancellations associated with wall to wall interferences.  id just design a horn about the same dimensions as the ax then cross to your supertweeter at 7k or whatever.   factor in that you'll need to make a phase bung and im sure something useable will result 
REFLEX ALL THE WAY.... (however, im playing with horns again...) That ok Mister Valiant? :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2011 at 9:26pm

thanks for last two replies.. I was wondering about the driver vs waveguide aspect.. Well maybe picked up a massively loud hifi type driver, but ill tell you when i test. At least the plug aspect isnt much of a big deal.

What was that about fibreglass moulds...?

Oh BTW. so has anybody got an AX88 i can borrow for a day. Just want to listen to it of course. Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2011 at 12:59am
Most are 12 ohms, very old ones are 16 ohms, the 1.5" coil ones are rated at 80W, the recent 2" coil drivers are rated at 200W, if you wanted to sell them i might be interested in buying them if there 12 ohm units as if got one pair of old 16 ohm drivers that dont match the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Centauri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2011 at 1:16am
Of course, the curious wouldn't mind seeing some photos of this, as well as measured T/S parameters ..... Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2011 at 12:21pm

Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

Most are 12 ohms, very old ones are 16 ohms, the 1.5" coil ones are rated at 80W, the recent 2" coil drivers are rated at 200W, if you wanted to sell them i might be interested in buying them if there 12 ohm units as if got one pair of old 16 ohm drivers that dont match the rest.


I'l check impedence when they arrive.  How many watts do the 16 ohm ones take. Info i got said 160 watt for 16ohmm /200 for the 12 ohm

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