Budget 18s in gsub?

Mikkel wrote: "to be looking at drivers with T/S parms ideally suited for purpose." What exactly makes a driver ideally suited? I mean as I just clearly pointed out xmax isn't everything when the dayton drivers, while having more xmas, is not as loud as the rockville drivers, with the same wattage given to both, in the same dual 18 bass reflex cab. So if its not xmax and its a combination of things, how does one find a new driver without test buying every driver? I mean you just told me that those drivers are suited for that, what in the specs shows that? Or is that just parroting speakers you've seen others use without knowing why? when you look at the specs on a driver you can tell what kind of enclosure it would suit. I don't know too much about what parameters to look out for but for vented cabs you want QES to be around .35 and a few other this like EBP but that doesn't matter at the moment. If you look back to the post with the sim of the rockville and the transparence drivers you can see the rockville peaks around 60hz and drops either side, sharply in the lows, more gently in the highs. Whereas the TR 18B-1100 is pretty much flat. Its a bit more complicated that this but just to give an idea.

Is that not where I should want my boost to be? I mean I'm looking to have these around 40 to 90-100 so that seems like right perfect in the middle.

I mean alternatively what do these drivers look like they would be good at to you? I'm not completely set on the gsub obviously since I've already suggested sb1000's for example. The thing that lures me to a front loaded dual bassreflex design is the fact it takes up a decent area (as in less cabs take up more physical space to spread wider across a 20 foot line) and doesn't have delay issues like compression horns for example do, this really screws with the scratch djs for example. It also doesn't change the note into something else like a horn path would, I'm looking to hear what its supposed to sound like instead of a horn fart.

As for the tr 18b-1100's if they are anymore then $150/ea then it becomes a question of if one beats two rockvilles since I can get two for around $150 canadian.

Edited by saintzoilus - 24 November 2017 at 8:37am

Thats fair enough. I guess your best option is to find out how much they are and if they aren't within your price range then just stick with the rockvilles. All im saying is that you will get more band per watt for the tr 18b's.

If it was me, i would look at building a planar wave guide to maximise the output above 80 hz. something with a ~180L chamber (300cm2 and 20cm length port) and 23cm front 'pipe'.

Heres an example but not correct dims for your driver - http://i2.tinypic.com/sq7677.gif

I can help you design a plan but if you feel thats a bit too fancy then just stick with the normal front loaded design. PS G-subs are tuned quite high (~50hz) so you might be better off with a plan thats tunes a bit lower.

But i certainly agree with hemisphere, if you do stick with the rockvilles then go for the best one they got, summat with 4" voice coil if possible.

Mikkel wrote: What exactly makes a driver ideally suited? I mean as I just clearly pointed out xmax isn't everything when the dayton drivers, while having more xmas, is not as loud as the rockville drivers, with the same wattage given to both, in the same dual 18 bass reflex cab.

No one said it's all about Xmax.

Mikkel wrote: So if its not xmax and its a combination of things, how does one find a new driver without test buying every driver? I mean you just told me that those drivers are suited for that, what in the specs shows that? Or is that just parroting speakers you've seen others use without knowing why?

Maybe if you spent some time reading past posts here and Google, you'll learn Speaker EBP is a good starting point, for deciding which drivers suit which cab types.

Then using some cab design software, you can deduce optimal cab/driver chamber sizes.
Some people here have been doing this for years, and can pass on knowledge gained from experience, without everyone needing to do the same footwork.

I have found WinISD to be one of the most precise and accurate, piece of software, for reflex cab design.
Especially with the excellent T/S parms calculator/entry.

http://www.linearteam.org/

The simulation regarding driver displacement, I found to be exceptionally helpful.



Edited by levyte357- - 24 November 2017 at 11:20am

Mikkel wrote: Thats fair enough. I guess your best option is to find out how much they are and if they aren't within your price range then just stick with the rockvilles. All im saying is that you will get more band per watt for the tr 18b's. If it was me, i would look at building a planar wave guide to maximise the output above 80 hz. something with a ~180L chamber (300cm2 and 20cm length port) and 23cm front 'pipe'. Heres an example but not correct dims for your driver - http://i2.tinypic.com/sq7677.gif I can help you design a plan but if you feel thats a bit too fancy then just stick with the normal front loaded design. PS G-subs are tuned quite high (~50hz) so you might be better off with a plan thats tunes a bit lower. But i certainly agree with hemisphere, if you do stick with the rockvilles then go for the best one they got, summat with 4" voice coil if possible.

There is only the two models of the rockvilles and they seem pretty close side by side in the graph you showed? Was that at the same wattage each or maxing each at their rated wattage? I'd have to bridge my amp to get 1k+ rms each at only 4ohm (so I could power two) so this makes the lower wattage ones more tempting since at 2ohm each channel, I can hook up 8 of these subs per the one amp. The voice coil is the same size for both drivers. Truth be told I wouldn't be giving them the full 600w/ea, more like 400-500/ea, thats why I'm looking for the high efficiency, low wattage, low cost drivers instead of high cost, high powered drivers.

I do like the look of that sub, it reminds me of the triangle corner subs folks seem to be coming out with now adays like the martin ws218x for example. However from the looks of this, the front "chamber" is as big or larger then the back chamber and the sub is in the middle? How important is that, like is that done like that just to have smaller volume inside the cab for the sub while having longer ports? Or is that front chamber doing something else I'm missing? I'm still pretty set on making a double 18, in your opinion would it be possible to redesign that cab so the driver was closer to the front without ruining the design, I mean is the design based upon that front chamber or is the back chambers volume and port size/placement more whats making the change here? I mean to rephrase this, what's making this go 40hz instead of the 50hz from gsub?

In theory if we resized the box with dual drivers there could be a corner tri-angle port in every corner and another one down the top n bottom middle as if it was two cabs next to each other but without a middle board to split them.

Would love some help designing these if your game, to be honest, the biggest roadblock I'm having is just simply dealing with the design software, seems I always mess up something, I've never really got it working properly. I mean after ten years of being a sound tech I can trust my ears, problem is all this theory building before hand I can't exactly test-listen. Guess mdf is cheap enough that if we can come up with a design I'm game to build it, got a woodworking shop and a buddy whos willing to help out so the biggest issue here is coming up with a design that doesn't sound like poo or fart when I turn it up... those being the two biggest reasons why I haven't built anything yet, I wanted to be damn sure I was building something that would sound good before I built it.

Something I was wondering about is the benefits of adding more or taking away volume from the case, for example, yorkville, the local standard makes these ls801p subwoofers that due to the oversized case sound really boomy. Only problem is the scoop path they put on it has compression issues at louder volumes and makes what some lovingly call a "woosh" sound but I call a fart sound and greatly dislike the sound of it, this is why I no longer use them since you can't really turn them up without getting it, or you gota use a crossover and cut out the low end, something you want to keep as much of as possible on subs. Not really sure what I'm saying here, its just that the larger cases seem to help it be more effective, more boomy... till it hits the max of the port and starts farting.

levyte357- wrote: @Mikkel, This might also be a good starting point for you, to know how to recognise drivers optimal for reflex cabs. https://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq4

 

Interesting read, but it didn't really point out much I didn't already know... if you want low hz bands look for a sub that is able to produce the low hz bands you want at acceptable spl/db, seems obvious that 50hz at 100+db is a better sub then one that has  50db or less.... but this isn't really what I was wondering about.

I mean to rephrase it, what in the TS specs do you look for when looking up drivers?

Or do you just put every driver into TS software and then look at the graph?

What do you do about drivers you don't have full TS specs for?

I personally feel that the TS softwares are not very user friendly and instead of learning about speaker building, designs ect, I'm trying to learn this software that I don't feel is really benefiting me in real world experiences and isn't educating me on anything other then how to use this software, that I seem to mess up and due to that, never get the information I want out of it due to it being not user friendly at all.

levyte357- wrote: Mikkel wrote: What exactly makes a driver ideally suited? I mean as I just clearly pointed out xmax isn't everything when the dayton drivers, while having more xmas, is not as loud as the rockville drivers, with the same wattage given to both, in the same dual 18 bass reflex cab. No one said it's all about Xmax. Mikkel wrote: So if its not xmax and its a combination of things, how does one find a new driver without test buying every driver? I mean you just told me that those drivers are suited for that, what in the specs shows that? Or is that just parroting speakers you've seen others use without knowing why? Maybe if you spent some time reading past posts here and Google, you'll learn Speaker EBP is a good starting point, for deciding which drivers suit which cab types. Then using some cab design software, you can deduce optimal cab/driver chamber sizes. Some people here have been doing this for years, and can pass on knowledge gained from experience, without everyone needing to do the same footwork. I have found WinISD to be one of the most precise and accurate, piece of software, for reflex cab design. Especially with the excellent T/S parms calculator/entry. http://www.linearteam.org/ The simulation regarding driver displacement, I found to be exceptionally helpful.

 

Maybe nobody here said xmax but if you look in the forums for what to look for in ts specs, you'll find alot of people talking about xmax, some saying its everything cuz you gota displace air to make bass, while others are saying its a combination of things and giving examples of lower xmax subs being more efficient, alot of case by case, sub by sub examples but no real explanation of what to look for in the ts specs. I have done ~alot~ of homework on this forums trying to educate myself and figure out a plan for my subs, this isn't my first account on this forums (forgot login to other cuz its been a couple years since I posted here last)

I'm sure winisd is very accurate, however user friendly it is not.

JonB67 wrote: saintzoilus wrote: [QUOTE] As for the tr 18b-1100's if they are anymore then $150/ea then it becomes a question of if one beats two rockvilles since I can get two for around $150 canadian.   Define beats?  Louder? Yes. Flatter response? No Cheaper? Yes Better sound? Who knows? This is observation not criticism; you seem to value quantity, price and spl most.  These drivers will fufil that. You're not going to convince anyone here they're the answer for us as others have different priorities. That said they seem to fufil your requirements.

 

Flat for.... Home audio? For... Studio use? What angle are you looking at this from? I'm looking at this as OUTDOOR PA

How come you need it flat for a techno party sub duty? 

Serious question.

I mean I can get it for mains that are playing a wide band from say 50-80hz up to 2-2.5k you'll want them to be flat.. But subs are playing a very very small band range and you want it to be as loud as possible in that band range.

If flat is so important, can you also explain to me why having it flat, for sub duty, is better then it being louder and cheaper? 

Again serious question.

I mean to me, one overpowering another driver that cost more is beating it, if the speaker can eclipse another speaker, in the same cab, with the same wattage (as in turn on and you no longer notice the other one is playing) then that is a "better" speaker "to me" since it is making better use of the power and space I'm giving it.


"you seem to value quantity, price and spl most."

I'd say this is accurate, but isn't this what everybody should be looking for? The best bang for your buck? I mean not everybody is rich enough to build a array of 18sound dual 21 cabs or powersofts m-force 40 inch sub as much as I want them they are out of my budget and power limits.... I mean just thinking about the genny power alone to power all of that is hurting my future kids wallet already I can feel it... And without a doubt a single 18sound dual 21 or a single powersoft m-force 40 would be louder and prob better, but at multiple times the price it makes building a wall out of something like this ~impossible~ for someone of my budget. Since the wall is the goal, the best way I can think of doing that is looking for 400-600w drivers so I can power multiples of them at once.

I mean again I'm trying to get the most I can out of limited genny power, quantity comes into play with that since I don't have unlimited power.

Edited by saintzoilus - 24 November 2017 at 6:32pm

Fs, Vas, Qes, BL, all play major part.

So does cone mass, even voice coil material, some say.

About 12 years ago, I once tried some JBL 2241, in random reflex design, just because I got the drivers for free..

The drivers always seemed to run into trouble in the 55hz region, with minor eq or when pushed.

Heard about WinISD, accurately simmed the cab and driver, and driver displacement indicated, driver would run into trouble, in that cab, with approx 550w power input, around 55hz peak.

Drivers sold, and replaced with PD186s, as they simmed much better, in WinISD, in that cab..
All done, lesson learnt.

My criteria for my own subs was best response 40-150/180 in a compact box that kicked hard and sounded very hi fi. I also wanted them light.

I used bms neo 15s.


Very different requirements from lev who uses sizable scoops. You only need to read levs posts to know he's picks drivers oh how they sound not just how loud they are.


So everyone has different needs and best is not exclusively about outright volume. For my needs my drivers will beat yours hollow regardless how many you can buy for the same money.

These drivers fit your requirements. Buy them. Try them.



Edited by JonB67 - 24 November 2017 at 9:42pm