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Budget Soundsystem with Turbosound

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Futendra View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Futendra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2017 at 10:28pm
This would be a possible stacking option, with the TMS-4's splayed, and the TMS-3's moved back a little bit.




Edited by Futendra - 20 March 2017 at 1:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shagnasty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2017 at 10:53pm
TMS4s are always tri-amped unless you want them to sound poo...

For that stack you would process the TMS3 on oneside of your rack and the TMS-4 on tthe second, same crossover point (250/250-5K3,3K15>air) but the delay on a TMS3 is slightly diffrent to a TMS-4.

If you actually build the stack as shown it will sound shit and no the the TMS series like to run flatted off, you HAVE to splay them by a Fist's width at the front.

186 horns will work under TMS, run the TMS from 60 >250 and the 186s from 30>110Hz as a starting point.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Futendra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2017 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:

TMS4s are always tri-amped unless you want them to sound poo...

Why does the manual say it is bi-amped? Any more info on this?

Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:

For that stack you would process the TMS3 on oneside of your rack and the TMS-4 on tthe second, same crossover point (250/250-5K3,3K15>air) but the delay on a TMS3 is slightly diffrent to a TMS-4.

So this setup would have to be mono for sure? That's too bad, would love to have at least some stereo elements. Is there a way to keep it stereo?

Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:

If you actually build the stack as shown it will sound shit and no the the TMS series like to run flatted off, you HAVE to splay them by a Fist's width at the front.

We will splay them as I said before, just harder to make a sketch of splayed speakers.

Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:

186 horns will work under TMS, run the TMS from 60 >250 and the 186s from 30>110Hz as a starting point.

Someone suggested not to have them overlap eachother. What are the pros and cons of overlapping the crossover points?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shagnasty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2017 at 11:21pm
TMS-4 was sold with either a Biamp (EP4/4xXLR) panel or a Tri-amp Panel (ep6) most hire companies made them 2/3way active with switches or similar.
3way removes the dreaded PX4 board (which still sell for good cash, probably because they are easy to fry...) all my boxes are NL8 so I just run 8 core from the rack through the subs to the TMS-4s and it just all works (5way running is a bit of a pain as I need to run 2 cables) running stereo in a stack like that is IMHO pointless, get a true mono sum and have the thing in phase, if you run stereo you will just get mud at that clearance as drivers that should be singing together simply won't be..
You could be maybe run LCR, but really??

DSP is cheap enough so stereo would be an option, but I was thinking cost....

2xDCX gives 12 outs you could just get stereo but it does up your amp count....

Overlap wise, I always do.
TMS have amazing kik sections, but cutting from 90Hz@LR24 seems to leave a hole, give it a try, as long as you don't use an FDS-360, it is easy to find you best setup...

DO NOT Drop the 10s below 250@LR24, they WILL die!!!!

In fact don't dick with the mid-hi at all, it works great!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Futendra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2017 at 12:57am
Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:

Running stereo in a stack like that is IMHO pointless, get a true mono sum and have the thing in phase, if you run stereo you will just get mud at that clearance as drivers that should be singing together simply won't be..

Why would it be pointless? You will still hear it, especially with brute psytrance effect panning!

Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:

You could be maybe run LCR, but really??

LCR would be really nice, as we would be able to play with space a lot more and have an overall better spread of sound, but is it worth the effort in a stack like that?

Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:


DSP is cheap enough so stereo would be an option, but I was thinking cost....
2xDCX gives 12 outs you could just get stereo but it does up your amp count....

We are planning on playing psytrance on it too, so we would really be able to play stereo :/ I will seriously have to think about this, see what the other guys think of it. I really dislike the mono stacks. Why limit the artists' playfield by slapping it mono?

Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:

Overlap wise, I always do.
TMS have amazing kik sections, but cutting from 90Hz@LR24 seems to leave a hole, give it a try, as long as you don't use an FDS-360, it is easy to find you best setup...

Overlapping might actually be a good idea since people will have their faces in the kick, and the TMS-3's can actually go quite low.

Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:

DO NOT Drop the 10s below 250@LR24, they WILL die!!!!
In fact don't dick with the mid-hi at all, it works great!

Yeah, I wasn't planning to do so, I trust the information on here more than my own hearing at the moment.


Edited by Futendra - 20 March 2017 at 1:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shagnasty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2017 at 1:24am
Panning needs space, in a single stack, it can add up to "f**king horrible phase errors" give it a go and see what you ears say!!!!

Personally, I would start mono, get some gigs done and look stereo later...

For psytrance there is now way i would single stack, I would mono block the bins (these are ALWAYS MONO, don't let any f**kwit tell you otherwise)  and get 2 2440x1220 steel deck with 1400mm leg to put the TMS on, offset as far as sensible, hence i overlapp my low end so much as I monoblock subs a lot.

I have run TMS "stereo" off single DCX (ok mono upto 250Hz, but in real terms, even with me mixing a band not a whole lot of stereo happens below 250!!) so if you have enough amp channels 2xDCX would piss Mono 186s with stereo 3way TMS mid-hi in that config....

I have zoned out a bit on this thread, but I run TMS off a Thomman 4-1300 (HF is -3db in DSP) and a SAE PQM-1300 (My Neo 18s run -5db behind the TMS-4's 18s for reason I care not to try and explain) we have 4 21s now (I also run TSE-111s above the 4s, 2way active, hence we can re-profile the low end with the 21s to get more push and kik) much as I would love a PL 9.0 for the 21s (the Mecca for Turbo 21s) I am not doing the gigs to get a 25mm feeder anymore so we are looking Linear, FFA 10 or a MC2 90 for them, if I could justify it I would bin my current racks and Soundwebs (again once you have used siundweb you laugh a idiots with XLRs and XTA, a single Cat6 cable runs my FOH and 6 mons sends...) and go Linear but I simple can't justify the cost...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Futendra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2017 at 1:43am
Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:

Panning needs space, in a single stack, it can add up to "f**king horrible phase errors" give it a go and see what you ears say!!!!

For psytrance there is now way i would single stack, I would mono block the bins (these are ALWAYS MONO, don't let any f**kwit tell you otherwise)  and get 2 2440x1220 steel deck with 1400mm leg to put the TMS on, offset as far as sensible, hence i overlapp my low end so much as I monoblock subs a lot.

I forgot to mention we would have 2 stacks for psytrance stuff etc. We would just have a stack of four 186 horns with a TMS-3 on top of them on each side.

Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:

Personally, I would start mono, get some gigs done and look stereo later...

Isn't it better budget-wise to start stereo directly? We will probably have to change around a lot iuf we go from mono to stereo...

Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:

have run TMS "stereo" off single DCX (ok mono upto 250Hz, but in real terms, even with me mixing a band not a whole lot of stereo happens below 250!!) so if you have enough amp channels 2xDCX would piss Mono 186s with stereo 3way TMS mid-hi in that config....

This was our plan, yes!


Edited by Futendra - 20 March 2017 at 1:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shagnasty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2017 at 3:06am

Originally posted by shagnasty shagnasty wrote:

Personally, I would start mono, get some gigs done and look stereo later...

Isn't it better budget-wise to start stereo directly? We will probably have to change around a lot iuf we go from mono to stereo...
[/QUOTE]

Not really, proper turbo racked used "mono" plugs so the rack was stereo until you shorted the inputs to make it mono, if you have the bucks, go straight to stereo, if you need a few shows to sort out cash patch mono for now...

With only 4 186s aside you will def get more bang with a mono-block sub stack and Stereo TMS3s spread out, also with only a single box aside you have no choice but to run them landscape, we used portrait stack to give more throw on larger (12+ TMS3 aside system, but the HF horn in portrait on a single box will give you literally Flashlight-esc HF coverage and as you are after quality not brute force for 20% of the punters a 1800mm riser with a single TMS3 on a 15degree down-angle will server you a lot better...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote midas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2017 at 9:03am
Originally posted by Futendra Futendra wrote:

I have another question.

What if we were to combine the TMS-3's with TMS-4's in a later stage? How would I go about connecting everything? The TMS-4 is bi-amped while the TMS-3 is tri-amped.


Would you gain anything from 2 less tms3's and adding 3 tms4's??

If you half your bins and turn the tms3's the right way with one on top of the other.

A local festival we do outdoors we just used 4 tms3's and 4 double 18 reflex bins, still a reasonable sound from the back of the field. Obviously not like standing in front of them.
In bass no one can hear you scream!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Futendra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2017 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by midas midas wrote:

Originally posted by Futendra Futendra wrote:

I have another question.

What if we were to combine the TMS-3's with TMS-4's in a later stage? How would I go about connecting everything? The TMS-4 is bi-amped while the TMS-3 is tri-amped.

Would you gain anything from 2 less tms3's and adding 3 tms4's??

A little less back pain, the possibility to splay the speakers. If we would get 4 we would also be able to do some really nice stereo stacks (TMS-3 in the middle with 2 splayed TMS-4's each side)

Originally posted by midas midas wrote:

If you half your bins and turn the tms3's the right way with one on top of the other.

My back hurts from just thinking about it.


Originally posted by midas midas wrote:

A local festival we do outdoors we just used 4 tms3's and 4 double 18 reflex bins, still a reasonable sound from the back of the field. Obviously not like standing in front of them.

We will not be using reflex bins, we want to be able to stack with other local soundsystems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Futendra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2017 at 3:05pm
What would be the best way to stack?

Option 1 is to rotate the 186 horns:



Option 2 is to rotate the TMS-3's:





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shagnasty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2017 at 4:16pm
Stack 1 with a little spaly would be best.

If you portrait TMS-3s you have a VERY narrow HF coverage.

I suspect your bins will work better in that config too....
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