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krazyneil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote krazyneil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: burst /power
    Posted: 24 June 2017 at 1:42pm
ok I was reading through the x4 post and it got me thinking if most  smps amps like powersofts /ffa/or whatever are rated in burst figures is that comparable to the older toridal amps pmpo output ?
for example older amps rated at 600w rms , its pmpo output that many cheaper brands ,behringer to name one, used to advertise as would be 3/4 times that ,so would be 1800/2400 w
 
it seems to me that they are selling them in the same way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djeddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 June 2017 at 3:05pm
It's the same as car manufacturers who quote, for example, 56MPG but when the motoring press use the car in real terms they can only manage 37MPG at best.
In both cases the marketing department run the company.
It always is best to have knowledge on reading the spec sheet!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djkeet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 June 2017 at 10:29pm
[QUOTE=krazyneil]
ok I was reading through the x4 post and it got me thinking if most  smps amps like powersofts /ffa/or whatever are rated in burst figures is that comparable to the older toridal amps pmpo output ?

This burst power has a cousin whose name is RMS.PMPO is probably the daddy, AES has inherited everything and it looks like a lottery where we try and get something for nothing

Edited by djkeet - 24 June 2017 at 10:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 3:29am
Originally posted by krazyneil krazyneil wrote:

ok I was reading through the x4 post and it got me thinking if most  smps amps like powersofts /ffa/or whatever are rated in burst figures is that comparable to the older toridal amps pmpo output ?

for example older amps rated at 600w rms , its pmpo output that many cheaper brands ,behringer to name one, used to advertise as would be 3/4 times that ,so would be 1800/2400 w
 
it seems to me that they are selling them in the same way

the first two brands you mentioned are very good and replaced torroidal amps in many amp racks and i guess 99% of their users dont want to go back to the old ones, i'm just back from a dance and moved easily in and out from the van 30kw of amps.
most oldies even when they sound good lack the required power for newer high power bass drivers, if you dont bridge the channels.
i'd stay away from cheap amps switchmode or toroidal its the same if you use your system a lot and need performance and reliability
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djkeet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2017 at 7:00pm
Fun and joke aside burst power measurements appear to be more of an accurate account of an amplifiers potential more than ever before, that's why leading manufactures are using this approach all that's needed is a universal agreement on the methods used to arrive at their results.Majority of forum members are familiar with Abletronics approach to amplifier testing in which they use burst signal of a few ms @ 40HZ and 1KHZ which is much closer to program material in its make up to determine an amps capability.

Edited by djkeet - 06 July 2017 at 7:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote krazyneil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2017 at 10:45pm
ok so to try and explain more clearly what I was thinking
powersoft k20 is rated at 5200w @ 4ohm burst rated but in reality id think it would be hard pressed to make a third or that so say 1700w continues power ie rms ratings as you used to have before smps amps and there burst ratings
 
this seemed to be demonstrated by the testing of the x4 which actual rms was no where near its burst ratings.
 
so your using burst rated smps amps on your 1600w 18" drivers are they really getting anywhere near the power they need/can take if the true continual rms isnt anywhere near that
 
It might be that the amp can make this power for a split second but wouldn't an older amp which was rated continual rms not burst also be able to make that sort of power for  split second just the same
 
it just seemed the use of burst ratings was just hype like the pmpo ratings were back in the day,and are no use to anyone in real life useage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2017 at 11:59pm
The actual RMS of an X4 was tested into a dummy load which did not accurately reflect the actual usage scenario. Here's a real world test of a K10:


I will AGAIN point to the fact that impedance varies with frequency, and the fact that almost ANY driver in a cabinet given it's rated AES power for a period of even half an hour will cook. Look into how testing is done and maybe actually measure the voltage output of your devices?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sypa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2017 at 12:14am
Gonna try the K20 for the first time on 8 1500w drivers this saturday, anxious how that will turn out.
Not too bass heavy material tho. How would that sound in real life tho ,the drop on 2 ohms ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2017 at 12:22am
Hmm any estimate how much will have for example infinite 8 in burst?

Why old transformers around 120% rms power rise distortion so dramatically?
Does it mean that powersofts have enough transistors for this 7kW as I understand thd is acceptable but weak psu? Or will those old transformers have also acceptable thd in burst?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2017 at 12:43am
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Hmm any estimate how much will have for example infinite 8 in burst?

Why old transformers around 120% rms power rise distortion so dramatically?
Does it mean that powersofts have enough transistors for this 7kW as I understand thd is acceptable but weak psu? Or will those old transformers have also acceptable thd in burst?


Define 'weak' - it takes well under half a second to fully recharge the caps in a K series.

1 second of above rated power at 2 ohms is enough for the vast majority of even bass heavy material - remember that most tunes don't sustain a single note at full power for more than that. We work with a whole bunch of stuff that tests the boundaries of what could be called 'music' and even then, don't find it lacking.

We tend to run our K20s at 4r per channel, simply to give that 10s spread. A reduction of ~18% is perfectly acceptable at 10 second sine wave duration.

Edited by toastyghost - 07 July 2017 at 12:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2017 at 12:55am
Weak in comparison to amount of transistors. Old toroid vs new powersoft.
Can you give some examples of music material where limiter starts working?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2017 at 1:20am
The limiter starts working wherever you program it to? It will depend on your driver and cabinet combination - and how well/true the manufacturer is at providing ratings for those. For example a TH118 can handle 160v RMS.
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