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Old Croc
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    Posted: 10 August 2017 at 12:49pm
Just searching around today and found these drivers

looking very like RCF




supossed to be a replacent driver @ 129£

Original RCF pic taken form BAran

Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2017 at 2:18pm
I've seen some copies of these many times. Could find some sellers even now. I think that you get what you pay for. Works well for the money, but doesn't really stand up against originals when you put high load on these.
Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dub Specialist Sound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 12:32am
Yes i think the same tbh

but for a budget driver , might be ok for starting up a sound
Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 9:10am
Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mobiele eenheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 10:28am
@CrashPC: If it has a Qes of 0.33 and a 4" voice coil but it weighs 5 kg... it shouldn't be mentioned under Subwooferové reproduktory, as it has no Xmax (not mentioned) to speak of.



Edited by mobiele eenheid - 11 August 2017 at 10:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mircea Bartic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 10:31am
cheap chinese knockoff. there are a lot of those in Romania

low quality. Excellent as a door stopper though ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 12:27pm
There was a guy here on the auction site selling about 10 of them off. He claimed they came out of a D and B sub. I thought that they looked RCF but the price was way too cheap. I wondered if it was a a knock off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 9:40pm
Mobiele: ...as if no seller ever messed up or didn't make a mistake. Yes, it's cheap stuff, but even then, it can work well to its expectations and to the price. Got surprised few times. The seller is quite reputable here, so at least if it turns out to be a dud, he will most propably fully refund the customer. If that one didn't have such high Fs, I'd propably try it as a more mobile sidekick for smaller listening sessions instead of hauling with my 21"....
Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2017 at 10:33pm
If you want a budget driver then just buy a budget driver, not a fraudulent clone that's trying to look like another driver to trick people into buying it (of course people don't assume it's a legit RCF but you've assumed because it looks like the RCF original then the specifications must be comparable).


12" ferrite with 3" voice coil, 7kg, a proven original(ish) design. $96.43 each or $93.54 each if you buy 4.

xmax says 3.4mm but they use conservative rating methods, other popular manufacturers would specify this driver as 6.7mm.

I can't even sim the P Audio versus the 'Master Audio' driver to compare because they don't publish enough parameters to actually simulate it. Generally the only reason for this is that there's something to hide - ie, it's shit.

On a side note, I like how the retailer you linked to is called 'BS Acoustic'.

This is a bit of a shot n the dark but just to try and get a vague idea of the performance of the Master Audio driver I guessed the Re/Vas/Bl, and simmed it against the P Audio. The bass extension is about the same but it has a much less even response in the same size and tuning enclosure. 3dB down across most of the range but with a 3dB peak just before F3. The cone moves further with less watts than the P Audio also. (7.5mm excursion with 300w vs 6.5mm)

Both results are basically exactly what you'd expect, so while it's hardly scientific, it gives you a very rough idea why it's not a good idea to use this driver. It won't be unusable by any means, it's not a total doorstop, but it's definitely not optimal and there are better options out there for the same or less money.

Edit: Another budget option, even cheaper still! Fane 12-300 Sovereign http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=FANSOV12-300

As low as $85 each from Blue-Aran, and again the xmax is rated conservatively. With the calculation method used by Italian manufacturers (voicecoil winding height - magnetic gap depth / 2)+(magnetic gap depth / 3), the 12-300 xmax would be rated at 7.33mm, which is fairly respectable.

The chances that the Master Audio driver which is too ashamed of it's TS parameters to even list them will perform better than either of these budget drivers, which are both $20-30 cheaper, is low.

And you know you're not supporting a business that thinks it's acceptable to rip off other manufacturer's designs and attempt to mildly defraud their customers, so it's win win really.

I found this undercover footage on YouTube of the Master Audio factory, so you can get some idea about their methodology: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG6oCrtef5A


Edited by Hemisphere - 11 August 2017 at 11:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2017 at 3:32am
I once came across a B&C DE 750 rip off, that looked so much like the original (compared it back to back) that it would have stumped the boys from B&C. They (the Chinese / Indian Importer) claimed that they had bettered the product. I did a back to back comparison on a ME60 horn, and boy was I impressed. Stunned would be the right word. I picked up 8 for the price of the 8 original B&C recon kits. This was one time my morals went out of the window. My morals don't exist when it comes to buying lighting fixtures. The way the original Italian manufacturer treated me when it came to service, left  me with such a bitter taste, my morals took a nose dive and now I don't think twice buying the Chinese versions.
 
Saw a RCF Lf 18 x 451 that was so well ripped off, it would be impossible for anyone to distinguish. The build quality was way better than the original, and a person who has never seen RCF products before would have picked the fake and labelled it original. The person who was selling it gave me a open challenge and said that if this (the rip off) was in any way inferior (if not better) than the original he would refund the entire amount back. I did not take up the challenge, but I had no reason to doubt his claim.
 
Its such a risk to buy drivers in India today. Its high time speaker manufacturers follow RCF who now allows the buyer to verify his purchase by verifying / registering their product on their website.
 
In my home town, for every 10 passive VRX LA1, tat are doing the rounds,  6 are fake.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2017 at 7:29am
Hemisphere: No. There is nothing fraudulend towards the customer, if it´s different brand, doesn´t claim it´s the other one, and the parameters are openly put in description or spec sheet (even thought they´re not good or enaugh of these)
Don´t change facts for feelings.

One guy at friendly forum bought this model:
http://www.bsacoustic.cz/hlubokotonove-reproduktory+61/pa104/

And here comes the measurement:
http://repromania.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96951#p96951
(there are some images in the upper post).

I still don´t see what´s that wrong with it, when you know you´re going cheap.

Even response is not a problem for bass anymore. Especially not with stronger speakers. Try to sim B&C 12TBX100 and see. I doubt you would call that one a bad speaker, yet it behaves like that with powerfull motor...

First two letters of BSACOUSTIC stand for the name (initials) of the shop owner, so implying anything else without even knowing might get into the rude deparment.

Here is measurement of the suggested Fane:
http://www.prodance.cz/protokoly/fane_sovereign_12-300.pdf
Not bad. But the construction and power handling is different, so I can see the price difference.
Anyway, We will propably not agree with each other, so I might not continue.

Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2017 at 10:57am
Quote there is nothing fraudulend towards the customer, if it´s different brand, doesn´t claim it´s the other one
The design is a direct clone of the RCF drivers, feature for feature, line for line. Except it can't possibly be because the specifications are way off and it weighs half as much. 

The reason why it's fraudulent to the customer is because the form clearly bears no relation to the function. It's been deliberately made to look like something it isn't - specifically an RCF driver, in order to give an impression of quality (unfortunately let down by an atrocious logo which looks like it came from a 1980's tracksuit).

It's also illegal. RCF would be within their rights to take legal action against people selling and producing these, but of course it depends on the law which varies from country to country. Perhaps in Romania and Czech Republic the law on design ripoffs is more lax so you can find these clones sold openly in shops, or perhaps it just slips under the radar. In India this is of course the case.

One other user in this thread reported someone tried to sell them to him as RCF drivers, and it's without doubt that there are places in the world that sell this exact model with an RCF badge, but the 'Master Audio' brand exists so that more reputable sellers can sell them too.

I registered for the forum you linked to for image attachments to show up, but there are no measurements in any of the posts you linked to. Just some TS parameters for the 10" model.

Quote I still don´t see what´s that wrong with it, when you know you´re going cheap.
Even if you put aside ethics 100%, the fact is it just isn't a sensible purchase. You're just not getting the most bang for your buck with this driver.

In reality, it will perform just fine and meet most people's requirements and expectations. There's no denying that and I never did. There will be a couple of dB less SPL, a few Hz less frequency extension, the excursion limits will be reached faster, etc, but unless you're absolutely ragging it most of the time, that's not such a big deal, and if your budget is limited I can see why it might be appealing. It certainly looks the business, and it'll perform satisfactorily.

But despite looking cheaper, the Fane and P Audio units I linked to, which are even cheaper still, will actually perform better! Probably not much better than the Master Audio driver, and certainly not as well as the RCF originals (which by the way you can buy from Toutlehautparleur for ~$150, so it's only $35 extra for the real thing!), but the point is if you're on a budget there are legitimate options out there.

Quote Here is measurement of the suggested Fane:http://www.prodance.cz/protokoly/fane_sovereign_12-300.pdf
Not bad. But the construction and power handling is different, so I can see the price difference.
Anyway, We will propably not agree with each other, so I might not continue.
Are you so naive? Do you really think this driver has 500w RMS power handling? Do you think if you ran 2000w peaks into it all night that it would survive?

The RCF original which is 2.3kg heavier is only rated at 450w. 


The Fane driver lists it's power handling as:
  • Power Handling 300 w (EIA 426A)
  • Peak Power (6dB Crest Factor) 1200 w (EIA 426A)

Which is what you would expect from a 5kg ferrite driver, although the P Audio at 7kg only has 300w AES, so the chance a considerably lighter driver will be 500w is zero.

It's a confidence trick, basically, and you've been suckered in. You believe their 500w RMS rating, you believe the look and apparent build quality of it (cast aluminium frame versus stamped steel frame on the cheaper drivers I recommended) will hold true, and the difficult part about this is that to a considerable extent it will, and most users will be satisfied, but what matters to the customer on a budget is, are you getting the most for your money?

If that were true with the Master Audio products, you might have a point and I wouldn't disagree purely on ethics, but it's not true. You can get better for the same or less money, from a reputable company, with a warranty and customer service.

Edit:

Check the date on the Fane measurements you linked to by the way. They're from the same decade as Master Audio's logo! Current plots from Fane:



Edited by Hemisphere - 12 August 2017 at 11:43am
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