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Distro and the 18th Edition Wiring Regs. |
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100 Volt-line 
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Joined: 05 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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 Posted: 15 February 2019 at 7:56am |
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[QUOTE=4D]
Its about attributing liability in event of damages |
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djkeet
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Joined: 26 December 2011 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 462 |
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Posted: 03 April 2019 at 5:45pm |
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With talk of matching fuse brands within 18th ed wiring regs (Don't quote me) does this extend to other components as well as Ive put an add in the the most wanted section for a Mennekes panel 32A panel socket or am I going over the topcheers
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100 Volt-line
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Posted: 04 April 2019 at 1:32pm |
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I dont think that matters.
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Boxes-R-Blue
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Joined: 11 December 2018 Status: Offline Points: 147 |
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Posted: 24 April 2019 at 2:44am |
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Again the 18th has
just vocalised the "fit for purpose" mentality of kit If you choose to have
Wylex boards and understand the the fact in the time it takes a 18v impactor to
smash 4x 5x50 screws into the wall to hold it up the "blue clip" MCBS
you have bought will be EOL and the "purple clip" ones don't quite
fit (if you use a Makita impactor by the time you have finished the whole board
will be EOL so easy there…) so you can put the "wrong" breakers in
and inherent the liability, or scrap the board and start again ( I use a LOT of
Schneider (AKA Merlin G) for this very reason as ISOBar is just the best and
the break design hasn't changed for 30 years, but they are not cheap (but if
you want B,C,D curve with any RCD device attached they are the cheapest) personally,
it I put something in it get the bolox R1+R2, R1 crap and a full L-E PSC, L-N
PSC and L-L if appropriate, I am happy to put BG RCBOs into Contactum boards
because I know they are in right, if you don't have access to the kit to see
1.4KA turn into .7KA on test then perhaps just leave the mains alone. As I have said here
1000 times, IMHO, no one without at least a basic 18th ticket should
be able to buy as much as a 13A plug top in this country. I need a licence to
buy shotgun shells, but I can buy a 35mm tails kit no questions asked, more
people die each year due to clueless cretins playing with mains power than
shotgun related deaths and the truth is “have a go sparks” are well clear when the
trouble starts. This forum is a prize
example of less than informed people taking advice from well meaning individuals,
I put James Eade (or whatever his name is) well in the cross hairs here for
what I sure set out as a well meant document, but is now a bible for cretins. I
personally haven’t worked with the guy, but based on that document, he would be
coiling cables on my crew. I am not saying
everyone needs to understand voltage drop, power factor, current distortion but
as kit get more SMPSU (LED-lightweight amps) someone needs to. The phrase “63a cable “
does my head, 63A cable is 240mm2, you may get away with smaller on a short run,
but ask a grown up first…, You may need bigger on
a long run.. Just always do some
sums, METER YOUR MAINS, at source and drain, if you are loosing 20V you will
have a fire!!!! |
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Boxes-R-Blue
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Joined: 11 December 2018 Status: Offline Points: 147 |
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Posted: 24 April 2019 at 2:49am |
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No, the point was final distro topology, so board, incomer, outgoing protective devices... As mentioned earlier, you can slam the wrong MCB into a DIN board and it looks like it fits but the busbar is 1mm too low, you screw it down, it kinda works but a few weeks on it cooks up. Personally, I don't see why their isn't a spec for a DIN rail breaker, BS GETITRIGHT x mm tab, y mm wide z mm off rail height, but before you know it 19" rack mount may be a standard (which BTW IT ISN'T!!!) You are also kinda knackered as say Neutrik don't make Tri-rate cable, Breakers, Trips, Isolators, Meters or enclsures so a simple Tru-Con1 distro is a no -go... |
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djkeet
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Joined: 26 December 2011 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 462 |
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Posted: 24 April 2019 at 3:48am |
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You are also kinda knackered as say Neutrik don't make Tri-rate cable, Breakers, Trips, Isolators, Meters or enclsures so a simple Tru-Con1 distro is a no -go... Thanks Boxes-R-Blue interesting points you make as regards cable once your running 63 shouldn't it be 16mm anyway saying that I have a very short run on 10mm Do you rate the 32A powercon connectors in some applications though? Edited by djkeet - 24 April 2019 at 3:49am |
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rosssss224
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Posted: 24 April 2019 at 9:55am |
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The problem is people assume if they can make a plug that fits it will work safely. Literally had to tell someone not to make a 63/1 to 16A "adapter" using 1.5mm2 wire. They told me "it worked last time" and that the distro has an RCD so its protected...dont even know where to begin with that (joking I told them in detail haha)
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Danielr
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Posted: 24 April 2019 at 2:49pm |
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I'm curious as to how you would police such a thing? but also, it doesn't matter how many times you say it if you are wrong...
I've said before, there is no 18th qualification, the standard DOES NOT specify a course and does not endorse either a course, certification scheme, course provider, or exam provider. Yes C&G like to pretend that they are the chosen ones, but they really aren't... NIEIC like to pretend that they are the authority... but have a look at their site for domestic installers.: qualifications: be certified by a qualified supervisor, much have public liability insurance, have bought the current edition BS standards, have bought test equipment and have it calibrated, have a site where you have done and certified work. so 5 of seven requirements are you must have bought something... (great start to a technical qualification...) one specifies you must do work whilst not qualified (how will they do that if (under your scheme) they cannot buy materials) and another requirement is that you must have your work assessed bya qialified supervisor... - what do you need to be a qualified supervisor and unleash other sparkies onto the world? some NVQs... (which I'll give you is a better qualification than just needing to buy stuff...) but NVQ L3 is equivalent to A levels being sat by 16 year olds... I chose domestic installer because there are at least entry requirements. your 18th ticket that you hold so dear has "no formal entry requirements" -It is suggested you have a "basic knowledge and understanding of electricity" before starting! and yet three days later you believe that they are going to be qualified to risk the lives of thousands of attendees at an event...? there is no such thing as "qualified" where the 18th regs comes in. Finally I don't think a few day day course (which is all a lot of those courses are) or simply reading the wiring regs at home and sitting a multiple choice test one afternoon necessarily "makes you safe" If you really wanted to suggest a "standard of understanding and education" then why aren't you suggesting having sat degree courses at accredited institutes, or years of industry experience, that provide access gateways to organisations like the IET where you can actually consult on what the standards are/will be? - that's a much higher boundary to entry than your afternoon of multiple choice fun... or maybe we should be looking for EngTech, Ieng or Ceng to design these systems?
having sex priceless, you believe that your three day course and certificate for passing a multiple choice test on domestic wiring sets you up as a greater authority than the guy who spent decades in the entertainment industry and started the British Standard (now on the 4th version) which has invited advise and consultation from across the industry? I'll agree it is a bible for cretins who want to implement what it says as rote without thinking why... but do you understand why that is? - because when someone dies, that standard will be the big stick that keeps hitting them AND deviations from that standard that they cannot explain, (and a three day course will not help them explain) is going to dictate the sort of liability fines and jail time they receive... unless you are really really having sex qualified, (and your C&G 18th ticket is not) you should not be deviating from the standards without a good reason, that you could explain, in detail, in court. because in the event it all goes tits up, your design is going to be inspected by expert witnesses who won't side with your "it should have been ok", "it would be OK for residential wiring" or your "I don't like James" rationale.
Good that you're saying that you don't need to understand voltage drop as it appears painfully obvious that you do not.
Funny how you started assuming that your multiple choice test pass made you better than everyone else, You are right about one thing though, There is a problem with forums, and that is when semi educated amateurs like yourself make everyone more dangerous by rubbishing the advice of professionals and telling people that they don't need to follow the advice in standards... You are a fantastic example of the saying "a little knowledge can be dangerous." or in modern terms, the Dunning-Kruger effect. |
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spongebob
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Joined: 20 October 2010 Status: Offline Points: 1395 |
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Posted: 24 April 2019 at 3:03pm |
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I see a little of myself in "Boxes-R-Blue" (aka shagnasty) sometimes.
What I mean by this is that while I do have some fantastic technical skills, I'm quite often let down by my poor inter-personal & communication skills and the net result is people forming opinions as Danielr has above (which is completely understandable and the natural response) We convey alot of technical information and skills on places such as Speakerplans, but I dearly wish there was a similar place for softer skills |
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imageoven
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Joined: 28 March 2007 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 2186 |
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Posted: 25 April 2019 at 12:54am |
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I think you didn't understand his post. He didn't claim to hold a '18th ticket', he was suggesting that it would be an appropriate level for anyone doing even the most basic electrical work. (I think actually he probably has proper qualifications, but please don't take that as an endorsement, this is the internet, he may be a 6 year old girl re typing stuff learnt from a Wikipedia entry, originally made by a bot) A decent answer to my question about why I should worry about seeing different brand, but same specification, protection devices in a distro is in there : DIN rail devices may have very similar, but significantly different enough, bus bar entry points.
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Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.
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Danielr
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Posted: 25 April 2019 at 2:32am |
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I'll admit that my post was OTT.
But I do stand by the sentiments of what I said... The 18th ticket, seems to mean a lot to those who don't know anything about it, for those of who the 18th is an expensive book etc having the book and a certificate in knowing it sounds great... But, the qualification really means SFA, it's the result of passing a multiple choice test. (Basically if you want a minimum standard, then (IMO) a test that a child could pass is too low of a standard. -the "minimum" standard is never going to be at the levels I suggested... How many professional companies in here would go bust in short order if they had to have a chartered engineer come and asses every space and work out power design and cable runs etc?) -them there would only be the "weekend warriors" left who presumably are the subject of his rant about the ability to buy heavy gauge wire.) The C&G course isn't recognised by the IET, so that is never going to be a standard they say you should adhere to, they are never going to end a consultation endorsing a single private company be enshrined in law. (When I say it isn't recognised, that isn't because the IET do not recognise education providers, or don't have the capacity to. they continually assess and a endorse university courses (courses, not institutions) as the entrance path towards eng spec recognition.) There are people in this forum who claim that they are correctly qualified to build distros, -it does seem (to me) important to state clearly, there is no such formal qualification or requirement, and anyone who is claiming that they have the correct imaginary qualification that isn't needed anyway, is just trying to part you from your money... -though if you have no electrical knowledge it is of course better to get someone to build for you. -but that agreement shouldn't be based on the lie that only a select few are qualified to do something requiring no qualifications. And for this forum, a lot of it (18th wiring regulation) is irrelevant, as most people here are not putting in permenant electrical installations, aren't working in wet rooms etc... -why would it be the "minimum qualification" (and that's why the other BS standard exists!) The statement that the guy writing the BS doc for mobile installations in entertainment being only good for coiling cables, is wrong, and that encourages people not to follow standards, which can wind up with dead people and prison time. Finally, whilst I understand the gripe about generic names for cables like saying a 63A lead, literally saying "this conductor size" is for 63a makes no sense! For the same reason calling any lead a 63a lead makes no sense... it's not worked out. It's just a different generic rule of thumb... So is subject to the same gripe. The same with the blanket statement about voltage drop of 20v causing a fire! -there are so many variables it is impossible to make that generalisation. So unless that was a joke that went over my head... |
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MattStolton
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Joined: 04 September 2010 Location: Walthamstow Status: Offline Points: 4234 |
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Posted: 25 April 2019 at 10:41am |
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The fundamental problem with any "standard", is it is best practice.
The reality is, unless you have a valid, calculated and thought through reason to not conform to regs, if it goes tits up, and you get hauled through court, you will be found liable. Even if it did "conform" but failed, your still liable. Matching the breakers and boards may pass buck to manufacturer of them, and no bun fight if only one manufacturer involved. 17th Ap3 changed requirement from "competent" person to "skilled". 18th maintains the phrase "Skilled". How you demonstrate such "skill" is not mentioned. However, the numerous courses get you started, so you begin to understand the regs. You then develop your skills from experience, and ongoing CPD. Equally, it mentions the "Design" shall be done by "skilled persons"; any old Tom, Dick and Harry can fit it, and then a "certified" Part P "tester" rocks up just before hand over... Fundamentally, BS7671 documents one of the best systems of domestic and commercial power distribution in the world. BS7909 should just be thought of as "Special Installations and Locations" addendum so big it justified its own book. It references BS7671 throughout. BS7909 attempts to guide "6mm in a 32A", "16mm in a 63A" as minimums, but if your manufacturer of HO7 claims that their 4mm/10mm will do it, and your calculations concur, then you may. But why would you? As you end up duplicating stock holding of both 4mm/6mm and 10mm/16mm. A lot of this is knee jerk reaction. Part P was brought about because some MPs daughter got electrocuted in her home when drilling a hole, when previous occupier had done a diagonal cable run. Part P, for those who knows it exists, is a hurdle to getting anything done. However, it does not stop ignorant idiots from using bell wire to hook up their new 10KW power shower. Equally Part P will not stop ignorant people from doing funny buggers with cables, and letting the next poor sod from drilling into it. James Eade (BEng(Hons), CEng, MIET, AMIMechE (PLASA)), much as author of BS7909, and companion book, is also a contributing author, "Joint IET/BSI Technical Committee JPEL/64 member", of BS7671. He does know his shit, knows how to calc, and how/what to measure. Not his fault people can't read, and blindly screw up without thinking. |
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Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains" |
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djkeet wrote: