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Distro Decisions

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APW View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2020 at 3:36pm
If you are running on a 16amp ceeform you probably have more chance of tripping the MCB than you would blowing a 13amp fuse in a BS 1363 plug.

The ceeform is likely to be fed via a 16amp type B MCB, a type B breaker will allow you to pass 3 to 5 times it’s rated current for about 10 seconds before tripping, the trip current then falls to about 1.4 its rated current (22.4Amps in this case) after about 16 minutes and eventually bottoms out as about 1.2 times the rated current. i.e. 1.2 X 16Amps = 19.2 amps


The BS1362 13amp fuse fitted in a UK BS1363 plug will allow you to pass up-to 30amps for about a second before blowing this value decreases to about 1.66 times its rated current (13a x 1.66 = 21.6amps) after about 100 seconds where it stays almost indefinitely.

The BS 1362 fuses rating is NOT its accrual current fuse is designed to blow, it’s the current at which the fuse dissipates 1 watt.

https://www.pat-testing-training.net/articles/fuse-operation-characteristics.php

…. Either way the two figures are so close it’s not worth worrying about... If it'll run on a 16amp ceeform it'll run on a 13amp plug!!

Edited by APW - 31 May 2020 at 3:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2020 at 6:10pm
get a distro with at least three RCBs, more if you can find one. type C breakers for amps. powercon and C10 outs are preferable IMO. 32A input. decent meter and traffic lights. If you have spent thousands on equipment then spend £300 quid on a distro to run it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote confused.com Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2020 at 8:17am
Oh dear, once again I read a lot of cobbled together pseudo informed guff regarding electricity that leaves me worried. The BS 1362 fuse with a 13 amp rating will rupture after a period of  approximately 700 seconds on a 20 amp load.It willl not tolerate 20 amps indefinitely. If that were the case it would be a 20amp fuse. Don't ever go down the route that says you can build in tolerances, delays or whatever. An overloaded electrical network is just a network that's poorly designed and implemented. Yes with music signals it's surprising what will legitimately hang off a 13 amp outlet without any problems but always use more than one, it makes sense. As the man says, nothing beats having proper distro in the rack. Start with that, the 32amp model is a good startg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2020 at 9:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2020 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by confused.com confused.com wrote:

..... The BS 1362 fuse with a 13 amp rating will rupture after a period of  approximately 700 seconds on a 20 amp load.It willl not tolerate 20 amps indefinitely.....


If you are referring to the “Bussmann Eaton TDC180 Technical Data 2042” the data sheet clearly states the fuse will pass 160% (20.8Amps for the 13Amp fuse) for a minimum of 30 minutes, however the accompanying graph stops at 700 seconds (Just over 11.5 minutes), the older version of the datasheet is as per the graph I posted above..... In all case the fuse MUST blow within 30 minutes at 190% of the fuse rating.




BTW, All I was trying to do was show that a 16amp breaker is just as likely to trip as you are to blow the fuse in a 13amp plug in a lot of venues with 16amp ceeform outlets… About 60% of venues I have been to recently that have 16amp ceeforms on stage are protected by a type B MCB.

I agree with you that a distro is always the best route however a lot of smaller venues only have 13amp or 16amp outlets and zero facilities to power anything larger.



Edited by APW - 01 June 2020 at 2:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danielr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2020 at 4:47pm
I look at it this way...
Carry a decent way to give yourself the means to monitor and measure your power, and carry the relevant adapters to be able to use it in all the situation you think you are likely to encounter.

If I was only able to use a 13a sockets, then there would be an issue if the venue supplied something larger. (I'd need adapters)
For adapters, there is nothing wrong with taking a 13a wall socket, and using it to feed some equipment with a 32a plug on the back. the (larger) 32a power leads and devices will "be able to handle" anything the 13a socket should provide so no extra fuses)

but converting a 32a supply down to a 16a socket, you find yourself connecting wires rated for being connected to 16a feeds, being connected to a 32a supply and possibly not "being able to handle" what the supply can deliver, (so you find yourself either with melted cables, or adapters with breakers in them -which are more expensive.) 


So I ended up building a distribution unit that has a Ceeform 32a in (with a 32a RCBO on the input), and 16a outs, (with 16a RCBOs for residual and over current protection on each output) - So I can use a 32a ceeform wall socket. (and everything in between.) I carry an adapter that would put a 16a wall socket to connect to the 32a plug on the distro
I carry an adapter to convert that 3pin wall socket (13a) to a 16a cee socket.

Most of the time I'm using both the 3pin -> 16a ceeform and 16a ceeform to 32a ceeform adapter.
(yes there may be issues with discrimination depending on the size of fused the building has installed, and depending "how many" outputs on the distribution box I use...)

(all the adapters (except the 3pin - 16a ceeform) and cables are done with rubber cable, (H07) using appropriate sized conductors.)

echoing what a couple of guys above said:
How did I figure I wanted 32a ceeform as the input connector? - well I'd played events that provided 3pin power, and events that provided 16 ceeform. so for me it made sense, go a connector capacity size bigger than what you I was used to. (As DJ-Dulux said: I have flexibility for anything I may reasonably expect to see plus a few "bigger" supplies.)
Anything else is a large step away. I never expect to find myself sat looking at a 63A 3-phase socket. and if I am... better to hire in gear to deal with it, than buy and maintain my own for events that I just don't see.

second thing to echo: like snowflake said.
I found myself surrounded by equipment, on one side of the room was a huge amount of cash in "assets" (amplifiers, mixing desks etc.) on the other side of the room was a bunch of extension reels from B&Q...

If you're three zeros deep in amplifiers, much better "look" and much greater "piece of mind" to have the power supply/protection/monitoring sorted. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote callumtruds Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2020 at 11:41am
First you should measure your actual draw. 
Power everything off one plug, be it a 13a plug or 16a cee form, play heavy duty cycle music, measure your actual current draw, turn the music up till its at war volume OR you reach a current value your unhappy with. Eg the 13 or 16a rating on your incoming socket. 
It may only pull 10a, or it may want to pull 20a. 

Its hard for people to give the right advice for your exact setup when they do not know the actual current draw of your setup.

Me personally I would put 2 x standard powercon connectors on your rack, one for the inf8, one for all other gear in the rack
Make up
2x 13a-16a ceeform
2x 16a ceeform-powercon
Buy a 32a - 2x16a ceeform distro 
 
Depending on overall current requirements for the system and how loud youll actually be playing it, you can then power your rig off any supply upto a 32a single phase socket.

I have never pulled above 13amps running 6x 18" turbo bins & 2 tops at high volumes ran off pkn xe6000 & xe2500.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Digbethdave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2020 at 6:09pm
It sounds like atm it's a hobby/play thing, so doubt you want to be spending that much on panelwork/distro. The size of venues I guess you'll be going too won't have a handy 63 or 32. Your most likely to get a couple double sockets. 
So That all run off a 13a fine, unless you are really spanking the tits off it.
If your spanking its tits, then pop the 8 on a separate 13.



Edited by Digbethdave - 05 June 2020 at 6:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boxes-R-Blue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2020 at 1:28am
For Audio power is a bit weird, the strength of your supply is more critical than the size.

a 32A feed off 60 of 4mm will not sound as solid as 13A off 5m of 2.5MM (assuming same source PSC)

As said above, go 16A as you can use 2.5mm cable, def have 2 feeds one for the Inf 8 one for the "rest", the "rest" including DJ clutter/Band backline, common earth nodes are good make up a pair of 1.5mm 13A > 16A (there is a stupid thing about not putting 2.5mm in to 13A plug tops) and if poss rever your rack upto a double socket and plug in.

If you need run further 2.5mm 16A extensions are the thing (use decent connector and BOOTLACE the ends!!!!) you can export 13A on 2.5mm for about 30m before you have an issue, at that point you need 4/6mm cable.

Above all METER your mains!!! a £2 "socket checker" from CPC could/will save your kit and your life!!!!

Kinda Been there, Kinda done that, YOU COULDN'T handle my bar bill!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sonic the hedge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2020 at 4:24pm

Originally posted by Boxes-R-Blue Boxes-R-Blue wrote:

For Audio power is a bit weird, the strength of your supply is more critical than the size.

This!

For community halls, pubs and even houses, a good place to  sometimes find a 'strong' 13A socket, is one built in to a cooker switch/outlet. Community halls in particular often have the kitchen next to the stage. One venue we used to use regularly has a side stage access from the kitchen which was perfect



Guaranteed to be on a 32a breaker and usually 6mm cable from the building DB. Assuming the cooker isn't being used you can be fairly sure that there is no other load on the circuit. Use a 13a/32a adapter and run 6mm from there, then the only limit is the fuse in the 13a plug, 20a all day long...

I have been known to disconnect a cooker and tail in, 100% legit AFAIAC, as long as it's connected, tested and certified by someone qualified, and get permission from the building owner of course.



Edited by Sonic the hedge - 11 June 2020 at 3:53am
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