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Drum mics e904 vs Beyerdynamic TG D57/8

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kevinmcdonough View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 March 2018 at 11:54am
hey all

Have used quite a few drum mics over the years, and generally use sennheiser e604 or 904 when I can; I have a set of 604 myself and generally use 904s when I'm spec-ing things for my freelance work on more professional shows.  

The 904s are on special (some anniversary thing) and are a steal just now so was gonna pick up a set for myself, but it got me looking into the drum mic market again, and what other options are out there, haven't looked in a while. 

The Beyerdynamic mics caught my eye, the TG D57 or 58s, and just wondered what people's opinions on them were before I put the cash down on something.

Also considering the Heil PR28 snare/tom mics, already have the awesome PR48 kick mic so might just go for the set.

K


Edited by kevinmcdonough - 13 March 2018 at 1:30pm
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Marios View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 March 2018 at 1:06pm
904 all the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 March 2018 at 9:43pm
I'm also a big E904 fan.  Only thing I possibly like more are my old EV n/d408's but they're a bit long in the tooth now.

Ultimately the Sennheisers win on several counts.  They're small, easy to use, sound good and survive drummers who don't have a good aim!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 March 2018 at 11:09pm
I also have 2 MD421s but i'm always scared of using them. No issues with the 904s.
I use a D6 on floor toms for the extra ooomph.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote el chupacabra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 March 2018 at 11:40pm
I also thought Heil PR28 looked good when I was last looking it's quite dear and you would probably need either the k&m clamp mounts or lp claws which gets even more dear.  I've only really used and listened to others use the pr22 though. Thing about those beyer tg 57/58 is cause of the mount you can't really multitask them onto amps/guitars/rimless percussion easily which you can do with the others mentioned with a stand/lp claw/z bar.

While I ended up going for a bunch of the new EV ND44/46/66/68 - that was partially due to price, though I'm very happy with em. I've still got some e604 and audix d2/3 (not on audix clamps), beyer m201/tg50d/bunch of other stuff. 904 are great. solid body and grill compared to 604 is the main seller. only fidget is for snare top I often mount an e604 backwards on it's clip - turning it sideways and faced inwards at a greater distance to avoid snare hits. while an e604 will pivot all the way, a 904 won't go quite that far.

£100 a pop is a steal, it probably won't come around again that cheap. a 3 pack of e604 still runs at £310. totally worth it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 March 2018 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Marios Marios wrote:

I also have 2 MD421s but i'm always scared of using them. No issues with the 904s.
I use a D6 on floor toms for the extra ooomph.  


Stuck an MD421 on a bass cab the other week, that were bloody lovely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2018 at 2:39pm
Even small fry like myself has the sennys! Had a MD504 for decades, and despite the hits, just carries on, bless it.

421 as overheads, i.e. out of stick range, is awesome, but wouldn't want to put them in range, very useful bit of kit for many things.

TBH, I still use Sm57 (or Beta57 for more directionality/less neighbour spill), robust little buggers that compensates for low wow factor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Phil B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2018 at 11:43am
e904 vote as well

If you're gonna do esoteric mics on drums just remember you have a human ( mostly) bashing things with sticks very close to your mics...

I've seen MD441's and the odd AKG414 explode in my time ....owwwww. 

Plus the next idiot who does no snare/ tom/ hats just two overheads and measures the distance to the snare for a live stage show ( "it's all about the ambience man") will get laughed off my stage.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2018 at 2:13pm
Nothing wrong with kick and two overheads....

For a jazz gig Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BJtheDJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2018 at 4:55pm
The following is a direct lllooonnnggg quote from a usenet posting ( Message-ID x0e1l.30634$wp1.15753@newsfe09.ams2 if you have access to a usenet news server) just over 9 years ago by "Phildo"under the Subject 'Phildo's guide to the big drum sound'; it may be of interest to those in this thread, it could do with some punctuation but I've left it as it is:

++++++++ quote Phildo from Dec 13th 2008 +++++++++

Most of my work is with rock bands & very often get complimented on the drum
sound. I've been a drummer since I was very young (I could easily have been
professional and used to do a lot of sessions/gigs, even depping on west end
shows) so it is an instrument I know well & pay a lot of attention to when
mixing. I just thought I would share some of the techniques I've learned
over the years with the group. Some of them may not be to your taste or seem
unconventional but they work for me.

Basics first. The majority of my work these days is briefcasing, walking in
to a venue with a band and using the house system. The house engineer is
usually your best friend for the night as he/she should know the rig and the
room. Leave the ego/attitude at the door, turn up on time, introduce
yourself, always check with them first if it is OK for you to mix (although
if it isn't pretty much every band I work with will pull the gig and walk
out), buy them a drink, ask them what you should look out for (room nodes,
how the sound changes when it's full etc) and make sure they know you are
always open to any suggestions or advice they can give you. Be sure to give
them a proper input list and stageplan (in advance if possible) and be
flexible if they can't give you exactly what you want. A tech rider should
be a guide and open to negotiation on most points but usually ends up as a
wish list. Anything you can't do without bring with you and make sure you
have proper cables and connectors to patch in to their desk. Help set up,
offer to give them a hand with changeovers and if you are still around at
the end then help them pack away. Be as helpful as possible without getting
annoying. You will probably be back at that venue at some point so be
remembered for the right reasons and it makes life easier the next time. Who
knows, the house guy might ask you to dep for him or put work your way
(which is how I ended up as house engineer at the Whiskey/Roxy in LA - mixed
as a guest engineer and the house engineer (the much-missed Louis Stetzel
for those who remember him) was off on tour the next day and offered me the
job on the spot) so do what you can to make their life easier and the gig
run smoothly. It's always worth advancing the gig, finding out the tech
specs and, if it's an analogue desk, printing off chart sheets for whatever
desk they have if you are sharing channels. Bring your own gaff and LX tape,
sharpies, tools etc because the venue may not have them and if they do the
house guy may not be too keen on you using up his stock.

OK, now on to the drums...........

First and most important - there is no substitute for a good drummer with a
well tuned kit. You can usually make a shitty kit sound passable with a bit
of hard work and plenty of experience to draw on but if the sound is good to
start with it makes your life that much easier. Learn to tune drums, how to
damp them etc. It's amazing how many drummers can't tune their drums so if
you get in that situation then, as long as it is OK with the drummer of
course, give the kit a quick tune. Carry tools, a drum key, cymbal felts,
lubricating oil (for squeaky pedals), washers, gaff tape and plastic tube
(to insulate the cymbal from the stand) to stop annoying rattles and give
you a good starting point to work from. A really good trick is to get two
short strips of duct tape, make them in to rolls sticky side out and put
them on the head 2cm from the rim on opposite sides of the drum. Will
instantly get rid of a whole load of nasty overtones. If you aren't getting
enough definition from the kick drum and the drummer is not using a click
pad then you can easily make one by putting something hard (coins tend to be
a bit too clicky so I usually try to get a piece of plastic and cut it to
fit) between the beater and the head and cover it with gaff tape to hold it
in place, remembering not to stick it on too tightly so whatever you are
using to give the click has enough play to move slightly.

Next up is mic choice and placement. Of course this is very subjective but I
prefer to close mic snare/toms and prefer the Audix D mics although if I am
using the house mic kit then any dynamic can work. Get the drummer to hit
the drum (not too loud of course) and move your ear around to find the best
spot for the mic. I try to use clip-on mics when possible and have them
about 2cm off the head aimed at the middle of the drum, not too far past the
rim as the drummer is liable to hit them. The closer you go the more low end
you get due to proximity effect. Low end is the key to a powerful drum
sound. I usually just go with a single mic on the top of the snare drum set
the same way as the toms. Sometimes you may need to mic the bottom as well
to get more of the snare sound but that all depends on how the drum is
tuned. Sometimes on bigger gigs with more mics and channels to play with
I've also stuck an extra mic on the side of the snare to get more of the
shell. Kick drums I prefer to mic with a D6 halfway through the hole in the
front head (if there is a hole of course and there really should be) pointed
at the beater spot although I used to use a beta 91 on a piece of foam
inside the drum and a Beyer M88 pointed at the beater spot. Whatever mic you
use it needs to be able to capture the low end but have enough high end to
get click and definition. Hi-hat I usually mic from the side with a pencil
condenser although that often gets moved to the top to get more of the stick
sound. Overheads are always condensers, usually mounted above the drummer
either side covering the whole kit. In the past I've aimed the mics at the
ride and the HH which is usually enough to pick up the crashes but gives
more definition to the rhythm cymbals. If I'm not gating the snare then I
can sometimes get away without a HH mic as there is more than enough bleed.
A neat trick in a smaller venue where overheads wouldn't normally be used is
to put one up anyway but not route it to the mains. Just send it to the
reverb and bring that back in to the mix which gives a nice polished sheen
to the sound.

Now on to the actual mixing. I'll usually gate everything (except HH/OHs)
but not too tightly and leave quite a long decay. Of course this varies
according to the sound you are after but I like a drum to ring a bit. One
trick I've used quite a bit when the drummer is consistent enough is to run
the snare in to 2 channels and use two different gate settings and reverbs
allowing you to have one sound for the backbeat (maybe a gated reverb) and
another for the quieter ghost notes. You can use the trigger function of the
gates to trigger each other if you have that function. I like for the
audience to feel the drums in the chest so prefer a system with good subs
and lots of real low end which has the added advantage of making punters
think the gig is louder than it really is yet leave without their ears
ringing. Switch off the HPF on the kick and toms and try to get some real
low end happening but make sure there is definition there as well or it all
gets mushy. It's worth checking the house EQ to make sure the lows aren't
rolled off too much which I see pretty often but make sure you don't push
the system too hard as house/system engineers usually don't put you on their
xmas card list once you've caused their subs to stop working and/or burst in
to flames. One very important thing to remember though is that you are
mixing a whole band and you should be able to hear every instrument clearly.
I hate it when I go to gigs and all you can hear is the kick drum over
everything (see my Barry Manilow post) so be sure to put lots of low end in
but not to mix the drums too high which is a mistake I see all too often.
Each instrument has its own set of frequencies that let it sit properly in
the mix and the best advice I can ever give to aspiring engineers is to find
those frequencies and use them to get the best clarity and separation in the
overall mix that you can. One trick I use on desks without full parametric
EQ is to use the low mid EQ section to boost specific low end frequencies
rather than using the LF knob which can make things woolly. I don't
subscribe to the notion it is better to cut than boost as far as the desk is
concerned (although it holds true for monitors and system EQ) so will use
the high mids or highs to find a nice bit of definition, usually around 6k.
Use cut by all means to get rid of nasty overtones but I prefer to do that
with properly tuned and damped drums than having to use the channel EQ. I'm
not a fan of drastic panning but a little can work on the drums. 99% of the
time I will mix in mono except for FX returns, just using pan to compensate
e.g. less guitar on SL if the guitarist on that side has his amp cranked etc
trying to get as balanced a sound throughout the venue as possible. As for
reverb, this is down to personal taste but I prefer a bright hall with about
2 seconds of decay most of the time and lots of it. Gated reverbs can work
on snare but I prefer to use the same reverb on everything so it sounds like
a whole kit. I've sometimes used an aural exciter inserted on a dull snare
drum but only rarely. Much better to save that for the weak vocalist who
just can't cut through the mix. Now there are two more things I like to do
which can really make the drums sound big if done properly. First of all is
to use a decent subharmonic synth on the kick and toms. DBX120XDS if you can
find one on eBay or the Behringer Ultrabass (now discontinued) which is what
I use. Send via an aux and bring it back on its own channel, 100% wet and
tweak to taste. Don't overuse it, just enough so the audience can feel it in
the chest. Can give amazing results if the subs are up to it. Last trick I
use on drums, guitars and sometimes vocals and is sometimes called "New York
Compression". When I mix I prefer to do it from the channels most of the
time although VCAs are a useful tool once you've learned to use them
properly. What I will do is route kick, snare and toms (NOT overheads or
HHs) direct to LR but then also route them to a subgroup. Get the dirtiest,
nastiest compressor you can find (this is about the only time I will
tolerate an Alesis 3630 POS anywhere in the signal chain), insert it on the
subgroup then compress the f*ck out of it. Bring this compressed sound back
in to the mix under the signal from the channels routed to LR and hey
presto, the sound is fatter than Lord Valve after a month-long
all-you-can-eat cruise holiday. Works really well on guitars and vocals as
well to give that big, fat, powerful rock sound.

OK, that's about it. You may disagree with some/all of the above but it's
how I work and I get good results with it. If anyone else has any good tips
then please post them as we can all learn from one another and it would be
good to get this group back to being the useful learning resource it once
was.

Broadband finally gets connected in my new place on Wednesday so I'll be
back online properly then although I'm off to Amsterdam Fri-Mon for my 40th
birthday (with my stunning 20yr old Brazilian girlfriend - eat your heart
out Eyesore !!!).

Only users lose drugs
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Phil B View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Phil B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2018 at 6:20am
"First and most important - there is no substitute for a good drummer with a 
well tuned kit. "

Tuned being the most important word.... The amount of flappy, ringy, boingy stuff we're presented to try make sound decent.... sigh. 
Oh and of course never give them your gaffa tape, they can buy it as it'll never come back. !

.p.


Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut.

Solar & Wind Sound System Shennanigans..http://diyhifi.biz/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacethebase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2018 at 11:46am
Beta91 in
Beta 52 out
906 snr top
57 snr bottom
906 or Beta 98 on toms
451 hats
414 over heads
www.deltastarevents.com

www.dss-audio.co.uk
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