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EAW BH760

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510 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 510 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 September 2009 at 1:35pm
are you sbout the speakers cause eaw uses rcf and 18sound, these are the 2 speakers i know about that eaw uses i have a freind that has 20 bh940 in florida those are loaded from the factory with rcf 12 inch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 510 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 September 2009 at 1:39pm
tda i built the 12 sub that the plans are on the web sounds good used 18 sound speaker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Com4tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2010 at 1:40pm
Guys, I have worked on the project for a while, and wanted to update all of you on my findings.
Best speaker I could find for this type of box is Eminence LAB 12 (I'm not saying it is the orginal driver used by EAW, this is simply closest production unit I colud find to work well in 760 like box). I can easily recreate nearly exactly  the same SPL curve avaliable in product white paper (with all the good and the bad since this speaker is far from "flat" before equalisation). The drawback is the speaker's price (over 200 Eur a piece) and the fact that the cabinet needs to be circa 20% bigger in volume than real McCoy.
 
I will publish dimensions that shall work fine with LAB 12 soon here. I plan to build 2 boxes around mid 2011. Stay tunned ;)
---------------------------------
Soon I will try to ask all of you to share your opinions/knowledge on EAW KF 760. These are  pretty complicated, interesting and modern boxes. Would be fun to build an updated (for avaliable speakers) copy to see how it stands against the orginal thing. I have some photos of inner construction but they are insufficient to start the project. I know that the KF uses phase plugs on most of the drivers, but no details on type, how fixed to the box etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Com4tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2011 at 10:08pm

Dear Speakerplanners, I have finished my works on EAW inspired box. I shall build it during upcoming summer, untill then any feedback is wellcomed.

I want to share the project right now in case anybody makes it before me and shares thoughts on how theory works in practice. Moreover - nobody is perfect, I could miscalculated something that trained eyes catch in seconds.

Finally - something aimed at copying finished as separate design in its own rights, possibly better than orginal project. I learned a lot that way, maybe this inspires other ppl. Yes, you can make stock designs better! You are not that limited as engineers of big companies. You do have time to do things more in complicated way (see my bends against EAW's), you do not have to count inches of plywood, you do not care that much for weight and size.

Okay to the point.

Lots of hornresp experimentation brought me to the opinion that EAW BH760 is a big trade-off. They tried to reduce the box size at the SPL curve expense, thus their box needs serious equalisation to sound fine (go check their website!). What they did to make the mouth area biggest (to increase lowdown response) is a hybrid cone, 3 conical segments that try to average expotential cone. This models rather  badly regardless speakers. Add to this not very carefully designed bends and you meet  harsh sounding box that is believed to work properly only at really high spl's and in groups of four at minimum (this is popular oppinion among pro sound companies).


I still liked the 3 segment bend horn idea and decided to find out what can be done if I do not limit myself with volume that much, and stress sound quality rather than highest gain @35hz.
I modelled many speakers, to find out the best for the purpose. The main discovery was that huge range of speakers seem to model well for optimal 1/4 WL cone. Only parameter that needed update to keep flat SPL was a back chamber volume. So remark number one - if you want to use my design with other speakers then leave the bent cone untouched. Put your speaker in Hornresp and find out right back chamber volume, then update the dimmension in my project. The rest of calculations (eg bends) are already done for you ;). General rule here is more rear chamber volume - flatter SPL at expense of group delay and vice-versa. Try everything between 50 - 150 litres.

I calculated the design for Eminence Delta 12" LFA because they are robust, and quite cheap to buy http://eminence.com/proaudio_speaker_detail.asp?web_detail_link=DELTA-

12LFA&speaker_size=12&SUB_CAT_ID=2

  Other speakers that go well with this design are Delta Pro 12" and LAB 12" both more expensive. Only advantage here is that they could work with significantly smaller rear

chambers (Delta Pro 12" = 80 liters vs. 140 liters for 12" LFA). Since box volume was not that important for me I bought 4x12"LFA's for circa 300$ little used (for that you get 2 Lab 12" if lucky).

In the final desing I had to compromise the ideal SPL curve a little to conform to limitations coming from bending the whole thing into cuboid.
I decided not to follow the hybrid EAW way and stick to traditional straight conical design that roughly looks like this:


 

It decompresses sound at the ratio of 10 in 350 cm canal.
 
Having this I calculated cross section's areas to decide where bends should happen and how to model them keeping constant volume increase in control.
I calculated the progression function in excel, data is below. Blue areas are bends. Third column shows radius you need to keep. Might be useful while building! <huge picture, open somewhere else to see details> http://picasaweb.google.com/barykent/Temporary#5559572266367686386, can send xls on demand. pm me.
 
Having that done I sat down to design bends with sketchup, and then the whole box. After bending - it turned out that too little space was left for the speakers. I Had to add additional 6 centimeters to compensate for this.

Resulting box dimensions are like this:
 

Let's go inside. This is the internal construction layout
 
 
Then it looks like this in 3D
 
 
and this...
 
 
The only part that needs additional drawings is speaker baffle.
 

Finally the list of raw rectangle panels to order from Castorama or other vendor with CNC is here ;)

 
I have not designed any bracing since I will add it as I go with construction. I'll add 2x2cm wood pillars inside because they are so easy to mount and take little space which is important. Please remember that Section 1 (near speakers) and section 2 are very vulnerable for volume changes and even 2-3 liters there will degrade the sound. On contraty Section 3 (mouth area) and rear chamber can take added volume. That is the place to place bracing.

General remark - be precise during building process - this is very unforgiving design. S1 needs under half centimeter precision. S2 circa 0,5 cm and S3 is safest, can take 10% of volume differences
easily.
 
Hornresp setup and predictions are given below. Every aspect of my design looks better than with EAW BH760 besides group delay, that is remarkable at lowest frequencies. Fortuantely you do not get often down to 25 hz. If it's a problem I will compensate for this with filling rear chamber with silka bricks. This will trade the low-end response for sound coherency.
 
Rear chamber should be stuffed in 30% - 50% with cotton or synthetic fabrics. Remember to use a router to make 1-1,5 cm deep circular cutouts as a compression chamber and to avoid speaker cone hitting the baffle ;) It is 1 cm xmax speaker so 1 cm plus basket gasket will do. To be safe you may add 0,5 cm "O" ring
 
Hornresp predictions are as follow:
 
 
 
 
Group delay shall not be greater than 20 - 30 ms. Have heared of some real life experiments on what a man can distinguish and it said for subsonic frequencies 30 ms is the treshold (is it true by the way? can you comment on this?) Fortunately my top 50 ms happen where not that much goes on in music anyway. For cinematic effects it shall not matter since they sound unnatural anyways ;)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
As I said before - I will build two of them and couple their mouths for additional effect.
I think it must be massive at 2kW amping power. Time shows.
 
---------------------
Edit!
 
In the discussion below MarjanM and other guys pointed out that:
 
1) my plan works flat in the "ideal" 0.5 pi space (meaning putting it into ideal room corner of really big room). It is not flat in 2pi space (mening putting it against the theoretical wall) look here to see how it works http://www.trueaudio.com/st_spcs1.htm . That is true, but look at the EAW kf 940 spec sheet http://www.eaw.com/info/EAW/Loudspeaker_Product_Info/Current_Loudspeakers/KF940/KF940%20SPECS_revA.pdf  it is not flat either, and needs eq'ing. You always need eq on sub, eg to cancel room modes, so... no big deal here
 
2) EAW 12 LFA are not suitable for this construction. Well it's true. It really is. These speakers cannot go much over 120W safely in this enclosure,  and probably 200W unsafely, ie close to phisical limits, after cutting below 28 hz (24db butterworth). I have choosen these speakers because they are cheap, moreover I have them. If you are ready to spend 300$ x 4 then Ciare 12.00 sw (aka punisher) is much better choice. There are two ammendments to the box in such case.
 
a. make rear chamber smaller - everyting from 60 - 90 liters seems ok. just cut part of it with additional pannel
 
b. you need to make the the aperture in speakers baffle much smaller. in my plan it is 400 cm2 for two spwakers. Now you need 150-170 cm2 for two... so instead 14x14 cm you do 9x9 cm hole and you're good.
 
Ciare are ready to take 500W each in this enslosure if you cut below 25 hz (12db butterworth)
 


Edited by Com4tee - 17 January 2011 at 1:42am
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MarjanM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2011 at 11:40pm
Thank you for your effort and input in this box.
However your driver choice is totally wrong for hornloaded box in a KF730 category.

Having worked with KF730 and opened it few times i can tell you that drivers inside are eminence. And that is only similar thing comparing with your choice.

Eminence Delta can not handle the stress of horn loaded subs. Period.
No mater how good they sim in hornrest they are not a good choice. Neither is the Lab12.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Com4tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 12:43am
Marjan, I could swear I've read story that Lab 12 was custom designed for horn loaded boxes nad then released on the market as "general pourpose speaker". http://eminence.com/pdf/lab-12.pdf look in specs... is says "Recommended (...) and horn loaded, professional audio enclosures as a subwoofer".
As said in previous posts I remodelled EAW in Hornresp. You would be surprised by how SPL curve on Lab12 looked against what once was shown in EAW documentation on their www (curve before eq.). Simply the same thing... but maybe it's just by chance. 
It does matter what emulation shows, it is a good starting point. You have said what should not be used, could you tell us what takes the stress then?  
 
 


Edited by Com4tee - 08 January 2011 at 12:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Centauri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 4:51am
Whether the Delta can withstand the pressure is a moot point, as it does not have the excursion capability anyway - even 100W per driver in this box will exceed Xmax, let alone 500W.

You also have a slightly incorrect parameter in your sim - 51 grams is the Mms, not Mmd, which is around 46 grams.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 11:18am
As i told you Delts wont work.
Why do i think that? I have 16 Delta12 in my boxes. They do mediocre job in a reflex top boxes. That is it. The cone is too soft, xmax is very small, BL is ridiculously low and Q's are way too high to be able to work in a horn box. Not even a top horn box.

LAb12 wont work either. How do i know that? I have 4 labsubs. Maybe one of the fist labs made in Europe back in 2006. Lab12 is designed for a horn. But for a particular one, not general horn boxes.
Lab 12 has a very loose suspension and requires extremely small back chamber. Also in the Lab sub both drivers fires in to a compression chamber that helps the driver control the excursion. You dont have that in the BH760.

The driver in the BH760 is a custom made one from eminence. Closest to the driver which is off the shelf available from eminence would be Definimax 4012HO. But still far from ideal.

What you need is a driver with Fs of around 40Hz, Q's at around 0.25, Bl of at least 25 and minimum 8-9mm xmax.




Edited by MarjanM - 09 January 2011 at 12:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 11:29am
What i had to tell you at first is the following.

I have worked numerous times with the KF730.

I only like the results when they are in group of 6. I have used them 6 per side at least 10 times and then they do the job.
But in general that box does not sound very good. Eaw claims -3db point at 29Hz which is practically impossible.
i am not sure for what kind of gigs you will use it but it that is not for a big gigs when you will use at least 4 per side, then forget about them.

What got me thinking is that you want to find a cheap driver for a top performance box and expect to have good results. If that is possible EAW would have done it. So that aint gonna happen.

Another thing.

Do you own a van,truck or a big trailer?
Do you have a crew?
You wont be able to move the boxes by your self. They are like 100kg each. So you need minimum 2 strong guys to move it.

And at last if you bother making that big boxes, why dont you build Labsubs? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Com4tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 3:36pm
Centauri, thanx for looking into the project. Mmd was calculated out of Sd, Cms and fs in Hornsresp.
Checked if change to 46 changes anything. It does but outside subwoofer frequencies. So no worry.
 
I checked the driver excursion @ 16 Volt and it reaches 9 mm max @ 30 hz ie. 130W @ 8 ohms per speaker seems to be the limit. Is there anything I can do to fix my design? Rear chamber manipulation helps a little but at the expense of SPL and group delay
 
 


Edited by Com4tee - 08 January 2011 at 5:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Com4tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 4:28pm

Thanks MarjanM. That is straigtforward and constructive ;) Now I see your point. First of all, I'm not the company, I do audio for pure fun of building/testing/learning things. I do office job for living. The whole thing will be fully stationary project installed in 60 meters 3 cars garage (3,5 meters high) that I own and ocassionaly turn into a party space.

I have decided to go for horns simply because I have already built anything else already and I do want to try different things. I've done 3 car subs (closed box and 2 reflex) I've done one nearly 300 liters refllex for home use. I've done 6-th order sub for car. Besides the last one all other sounded fine. 6-th order also did overall a good job, but the efficiency was not that great, at least not to justyfy the additional work and risk with that cab, but I don't mind. It teached me something.
 
With that attitude in mind you may understand why I experiment on a huge box, that is really intransportable, and try to put there 100$ speakers ;)
 
I don't want to build labsubs because they were built thousand times already and everybody say they are good. The thrill is missing ;) I want something that is unpredictable untill done. I prefer that over a sure effect. It's just me.
 
Do you think that BH760 cost that much because of the sophisticated driver? I do not. Possibility of using cheaper driver wouldn't drive EAW to build a half priced 760. I think that's the marketing not physics and what could be done.
 
As you can see my proposed design is hugely different than in BH 760 - unfolded cone is different, that makes me think that it does not inherit BH inability to play at lower volumes (I have softer driver) and less harsh (different, straight conenical structure).  At least I will not know that until I chceck that. What do you think? If you say my design will not take more than 100W per speaker, that is still 130 decibels to experiment with per enclosure. So the question here is - do you think changes in my design could make sgnificantly differently behaving sub than BH760? Or it's hornloading nature is prevalent? (BTW in your posts you refer to kf730, subs for 730 are nothing like bh760 is it just misspelling or we discuss two different stories?)
 
Is there anything I can make to make the horn better in terms of power handling? Are there any changes to speaker itself that may be done out of factory? eg stiffening the spider with some resin (crazy idea but maybe that's the way)?
 
 
Final question - what do you think 12" LFA's shall be used in (type of enclosure) to make best subwoofers? Would they work fine in something like small/recalculated  version of SB 1000?  
 
 
 


Edited by Com4tee - 08 January 2011 at 5:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 7:21pm
Yes i mistype. I was thinking of BH760.

What i am trying to do is to prevent you from just spending money for nothing.

Delta 12LFA can be used in reflex boxes. And yes some revised SB1000 kind of box should be fine. 

Is your plan to make 4 boxes? Your hornresp data is showing the response of 4 boxes grouped together. If you make only one box or two you wont get to that response.


Edited by MarjanM - 08 January 2011 at 7:23pm
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