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es18? Martin 215 mk2,mk3? mkb-230? 1850? 186? Arr!

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Jay michali View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jay michali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: es18? Martin 215 mk2,mk3? mkb-230? 1850? 186? Arr!
    Posted: 21 January 2019 at 6:41am
I think there is a point where you hit a saturation point with research... I'm way past this point haha!

Ive owned a nice RCF 4pro system for a decade, sounds really nice for live music house and techno, super nice for vocals. Its shifting duties to our second stage at a festival we host, 20% live, 40% bass music, 40% house techno and psytrance.

2 things the rcf system didnt do well was reach lower than 40hz and it could never really nail the clean and powerful mid bass and kick of psytrance.  I'm planning out a build to replace our main stage system and I have some parameters I want to meet.

1.Needs to work well indoors and outdoors (host many indoor shows in the off season)
2.Minimum 35hz authority to cover modern mass music
3.Needs to really nail the psytrance sound (been dj'ing psytrance 20 years, still throw lots of psy parties)
4.Easy to scale for small to larger events 75 to 300 people typically
5.Have trailer so cabinet size flexible, dont want to go huge though.

I haven't heard a ton of systems to compare to, where I live in Canada doesnt have a bunch of different options to experience. I have heard turbo sound and funktion1 rigs sound pretty great playing psytrance. 

From my research it seems to best achieve the defined and powerful mid bass and kick of psytrance I'm probably looking for a bph or flh such as a es18 or martin 215 or similiar.  These types of designs wont get me my 35hz or lower requirement.  Options that I am considering.

I really like the idea of a tapped horn such as the xoc1 th18.  People seem to say they can deliver to 35hz in a pack of 4, they sound reasonably good both indoors and outdoors and come in a reasonable size.
The othorns are also on my list.

So perhaps a tapped horn dealing with low sub and a bph or flh for that 70ish to 150 and mid tops for the rest. Alternatively perhaps the th18 running up to around 100 ish with something like a kubo kick 15 going up to 200hz?  This combo would also be flexible in such that on bass music only nights I could prob skip the midbass cabinets as my tops will go down reasonably low enough to meet the th-18's. 

Would there be a particular midbass cabinet design that would be best suited with a tapped horn?
The es18 seems to be super popular with the psytrancers on this form.  I have pretty discerning ear,  I also want quality sound, good vocal reproduction and musicality.  The martins look pretty sweet, as do the mkb230's etc etc etc.... I just simply dont have the experience of hearing these designs to have any sort of educated approach to this problem.  Or maybe I am completely in the ditch I'm missing an obvious other option I havent thought of yet. Hoping someone can give me some reason to lean towards a particular combination to make my goals work.

Many thanks to anyone willing to help me out here

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citizensc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 9:11am
Hi Jay

If you want something scalable down to 75 people that reach 35 hz, FLH/BPH as a one-way bass solution is never going to work. They don't really work properly in singles. 

I think either going reflex or a tapered horn is probably the right idea as they will still work well in singles making them very scalable. 

If you want a really solid kick then a lot of the designs you mentioned would be good, I would steer clear of the 1850/186 if you are going to run 2-way bass, they are big heavy cabinets, and the low end of them will be wasted. 

If it were me, id pick the mkh230 because it plays low enough to meet most sub designs, plays high enough to give you a lot of choice for your tops, has a really solid kick, has high SPL/sensitivity and is a really easy build.  

But this is all up to you, the MKH230 isn't exactly small. 

Also, it would help if you gave a little more info, what do you intend to use for tops? What's your budget? what amps do you have available? are you setting up solo, or will you have someone to help you with heavy lifts? are you dealing with stairs? 

Anyway, there are people on here far more knowledgable than me and I'm sure they will have some other ideas. 
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AM55 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AM55 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 11:41am
I would look at Cubos. If you want one way bass you can just build a Cubo18 or if two way a Cubo kick and sub. They are scalable, compact enough to be manageable but also large enough to give a decent output. They are a very straight forward build and really forgiving on driver choice. The main man who designed it is always on hand to discuss drivers based an budget and availability in your locality.

For tops the Peter Morris mid top over on DIY audio is about the best you are going to get at the moment.

There is a used Turbosound and Funktion one sale Facebook group, occasionally things pop up in north America so it would be worth checking out. I seem to remember there is currently a load of Turbo Flood and Flash up for sale.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 1:37pm
As you like RCF, have a look at HDL6A with 8004AS?

I have a stack of 2 8004AS, with 6 HDL6-A on top, twice to form stereo pair.

Have a careful listen first. But you can scale it down to single sub, pole, 3 HDL6A, or put 4 such "stacks", one in each corner?

Not really a true line array, as length isn't even close to achieve cylindrical wavefront, but does nicely for playback, as well as live music mixing.

May work. Subs are BR so go quite low, and have a switched DSP fudge - "Punch" setting kicky for volume, or "Deep" for deep at expense of absolute SPL. Claims 30Hz, but doesn't quantify if that is -10dB, -3dB, so have a thorough play first. Make a stack of three, and "cardio" switch the middle one to get a cardio stack for Festy noise abatement help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 3:11pm
IIRC you are in Canada? You could look for used Yorkville unity tops.
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Jay michali View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jay michali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 4:07pm
Thanks everyone for giving some great suggestions!
 
Citizensc,  Thank you for the mkh230 suggestion. It wasn't one I had really looked at but on a second look it may work quite well as my subs would easily meet them at its lowest and I am impressed by how high it goes? Do you think its actually usable to the frequencies it can reach? The graph shows fairly flat even beyond 500hz? Have you heard one before? I am very curious about this cabinet as its pretty different than what I was originally considering
 
Tops are still an unknown at this time, probably looking for something with a good reputation on the used market.  I have RCF4pro4001's that I can use for smaller shows.  They sound very nice and have been quite reliable but even with the 15 inch low driver they don't produce a very convincing kick.  
https://www.prodance.cz//attachments/RCF%204PRO%204001-A%20sheet.pdf - https://www.prodance.cz/data/attachments/RCF%204PRO%204001-A%20datasheet.pdf
 
The two Peter Morris designs look pretty attractive, could be a potential option. 
 
6-8k Canadian is the loose budget I have in mind.  We have a local shop that carries a large rental fleet made by the company that owns the store chain.  I am thinking of this particular amp for the subs. Bit older technology but the have a reputation for being workhorses and very reliable. They service/repair them locally and a readily available to rent so very easy for me to grab more of them when needed for bigger shows.  I use driveracks for processing.
  https://www.long-mcquade.com/22670/Pro-Audio---Recording/Power-Amps---Crossovers/Yorkville-/Audiopro-3600-Wattt-Power-Amplifier.htm - https://www.long-mcquade.com/22670/Pro-Audio---Recording/Power-Amps---Crossovers/Yorkville-Sound/Audiopro-3600-Wattt-Power-Amplifier.htm
 
AM55, the whole Cubo ecosystem of designs is very attractive. I have read through those threads more than a few times.  I have pm'd a few people who have built them and they have provided me with some info to chew on. 
 
Matt Stolton.  My Rcf system has treated me very well over the last 12 years.  I have the older version of your subs, the 4pro8001's and the 4001 tops have an amazing sound to them. RCF pricing in Canada has gone insane lately, even on a contractor level so a new system is out of my reach.  I have also never been impressed by a BR system playing faster trance music.  It could very well be my personal preference of what I want it to sound like or feel like, but it always seems to be lacking in that midbass/kick range.  I like to keep my system sound levels lower than most but I still want the music to be warm and thick where you can feel it, yet still be able to talk easily on the dance floor.  
 
Thoughts on the Es18 everyone?  It seems a popular trance cabinet but some people say the sound is not very musical.  Is that driver dependent? Is there a more musical option?
 
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Jay michali View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jay michali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 4:14pm
Hey Bob4.   The Yorkville unity's are readily available in my city and we have used them here and there. I like them for live music but I prefer the sound from my RCF's.  For dance music they pack a lot of punch but are not very hifi sounding to me ears. 
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Jay michali View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jay michali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 4:28pm
A couple more thoughts.
 
AM55 thanks for the heads up on the turbo f1 facebook group, some used floods might be an option.
 
I'm north of 40 so cabinet size is a bit of a concern, but I have a pretty good crew of minions so I'm willing to put sound quality over size to a certain extent.
 
Getting back to my main issue.  I was leaning towards the es18's as they seem to get reviewed in a similar light compared to turbo/f1 as far as that mid punch is concerned.  What I really want to know is can I get that same mid punch with something like a martin 215 or mkh230 and maybe benefit from a more hi fi sound as well?  I'm not really looking for knock your head off power, more something that is warm and full, yet very precise and articulate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 4:32pm
If you want TH18 consider also 2* light 15" + 2". Ofc trance highs are hard to match to 1"+ 6" but for:
Originally posted by Jay michali Jay michali wrote:

20% live, 40% bass music, 40% house techno
It is very reasonable way. Expandable too.
I appreciate every like :)) https//www.facebook.com/genomesoundsystems
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Jay michali View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jay michali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 4:37pm
Hey Genome, sorry I didn't follow your suggestion. What is 2* light 15" + 2" referring to?
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 5:01pm
For example 2* 15MB700 + 2"throat hf section in one box. Or 15ND830..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by Jay michali Jay michali wrote:

Hey Bob4.   The Yorkville unity's are readily available in my city and we have used them here and there. I like them for live music but I prefer the sound from my RCF's.  For dance music they pack a lot of punch but are not very hifi sounding to me ears. 

Personally I have never heard a U15 cab. Very interesting to hear your opinion! To be honest it is a bit of a downer, since on paper the U15 should be superior to your current cabs from an engineering point of view, due to the Synergy loading (Yorkville licensed it from Tom Danley). Did you know that they have three 5" midrange transducers built inside the mid horn? I'm not arguing against your opinion, and don't want to sound disrespectful, but maybe you have had some kind of bias towards the cab….. it looks very unassumingly run-of-the-mill standard 15" two wayish. 

It may be worth auditioning and evaluating it again, see if anything can be done with processing/eq. It might suit your bill (and budget!!) very well otherwise.  

EDIT: they also array very well, with 60deg dispersion, you can put two per side for larger gigs. 


For the bass end, I would recommend to just build a pack of single reflex 15" or 18" with capable modern drivers. 

For example the bms 15s330 comes to mind. It would provide a scalable solution, since your smallest events are 75 people. 


I have heard a stack of four compact single reflex 15" subs loaded with this driver on a T amp proline3000 provide very nice sub. 

 


Edited by bob4 - 21 January 2019 at 5:10pm
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