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FFA 10K vs Void Infinite 8 MK2

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toastyghost View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2022 at 9:36am
Originally posted by fatfreddiescat fatfreddiescat wrote:

Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:


EDIT:Big Transformer amps like JTS UA6/Crest 9001, have piles and piles of smoothing caps, to ease strain on mains, during heavy bass notes, but then, depending on sophistication of the inrush current limiting, you are more likely to take out breaker on switch on, if your power source is humble domestic ring main.

Obviously, Rog did sterling job on Inf8 MK2, as it does great job powered off Consumer ring main/13A plug, and ever better on proper power.


To get full performance from Big Lightweight, you need proper 3 phase mains.





What you really want is PFC. This can reduce power requirements by 30% making considerable differences when running on smaller than ideal supplies.

With the exception of X series Powersoft which are designed to sit across all 3 phases, the only advantage of 3 phase is in terms of power distribution efficiency, not amplifier capability. Any supply sufficiently large not to experience voltage drop or over current protection will yeald the same audio results.


Seems not everybody is a fan of PFC:



Worth noting that in independent tests, two equivalent 4-channel amps with PFC achieved higher output levels (by up to 1000W) at higher efficiency ratings with music-like signals (12dB CF noise & multi-tone bursts).

The Linea did the best in the 10-second sine wave comparisons, by up to 360W or 1.96dB more output. This is all with 4x4 Ohm nominal loading.

This might also be interesting (Linea first):

For reference, I dug out a rare test of a modern Class H amplifier (Dynacord L3600FD):


The Dynacord is only 2-channel, but puts out the most on the sine wave 10-second test at 1225W. It does however only have a maximum of 600W of 'headroom' for the multi-tone tests and the music signal (12dB CF) tests. That's <1.7dB of dynamic range if you push the amp super hard.

Bear in mind that due to not having PFC, the Linea M series also doesn’t work on any input voltage mains supply. Instead it has two power supply settings, for either 110V or 220V that it auto-selects on power up.

Edited by toastyghost - 29 July 2022 at 10:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kipman725 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2022 at 1:06pm
wow I didn't know that about Linea amps, I just assumed they had PFC, they are correct that power factor near maximum load is most important.  Their document is a over simplified though! PFC is most critical in provisioning of generators, if you have perfect sinusoidal and in phase with the voltage current draw you don't need to over-provision.  A classical PFC stage however has generates a fair bit of current distortion even if it has 0.99 Pf, this can cause conducted emmisions test failure. 

I have actually worked on 100kw+ power 3 phase PFC and it's non trivial, actual implementation required an SOC FPGA just to do the required control.  Its probably beyond the budget audio amplifiers.  If you do it properly however performance is sensational:   https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tiducj0b/tiducj0b.pdf ;
Does anyone know what type of power supply the Powersoft X8 uses?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2022 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by kickdust kickdust wrote:

3 phase... To run amplifiers... You guys got to be kidding me


I meant using single phase of a 3PH supply, as opposed to depending on a 32A consumer ring main.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatfreddiescat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2022 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by kipman725 kipman725 wrote:

wow I didn't know that about Linea amps, I just assumed they had PFC, they are correct that power factor near maximum load is most important.  Their document is a over simplified though! PFC is most critical in provisioning of generators, if you have perfect sinusoidal and in phase with the voltage current draw you don't need to over-provision.  A classical PFC stage however has generates a fair bit of current distortion even if it has 0.99 Pf, this can cause conducted emmisions test failure. 

I have actually worked on 100kw+ power 3 phase PFC and it's non trivial, actual implementation required an SOC FPGA just to do the required control.  Its probably beyond the budget audio amplifiers.  If you do it properly however performance is sensational:   https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tiducj0b/tiducj0b.pdf ;
Does anyone know what type of power supply the Powersoft X8 uses?




This link has more info on the PSU in the X8 on page 15, still nothing on what type with regards resonant etc:


Also, what do you make of their concerns re PFC, (I guess it may come down to the 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating') taken from their 'white paper'?:
'The issue When talking about amplifiers, striving for a unity power factor is not the whole story. Modern power factor correctors can achieve a very good PF figure, often better than 0.9 but they can only do this if their load is more or less constant. To think of this another way, the PFC must continually adjust the shape and timing of the current draw to be the same as the mains voltage which is more or less a sine-wave. If the load is constant this is not too much of a problem. However if the load, in this case an amplifier responding to an audio signal suddenly demands more power, the PFC has two choices : • Ignore the power demand, keep the current waveform pure and maintain the PF close to unity. BUT this means that the amplifier may be starved of the current required and the audio may suffer. • Increase the current draw to meet the demand. BUT this means that the PF will be compromised until the PFC has adjusted itself, which can take tens of milliseconds. In practice the design of the PFC will have to be a compromise between these two conflicting requirements which means that it will not perform as effectively when the amplifier is fed with program material as it does when fed from a stable pink noise or sine-wave test signal. Of course it is almost certain that stable test signals were are used to create the PF number for the products’ specification sheet.'



Edited by fatfreddiescat - 29 July 2022 at 9:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatfreddiescat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2022 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by fatfreddiescat fatfreddiescat wrote:

Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:


EDIT:Big Transformer amps like JTS UA6/Crest 9001, have piles and piles of smoothing caps, to ease strain on mains, during heavy bass notes, but then, depending on sophistication of the inrush current limiting, you are more likely to take out breaker on switch on, if your power source is humble domestic ring main.

Obviously, Rog did sterling job on Inf8 MK2, as it does great job powered off Consumer ring main/13A plug, and ever better on proper power.


To get full performance from Big Lightweight, you need proper 3 phase mains.





What you really want is PFC. This can reduce power requirements by 30% making considerable differences when running on smaller than ideal supplies.

With the exception of X series Powersoft which are designed to sit across all 3 phases, the only advantage of 3 phase is in terms of power distribution efficiency, not amplifier capability. Any supply sufficiently large not to experience voltage drop or over current protection will yeald the same audio results.


Seems not everybody is a fan of PFC:



Worth noting that in independent tests, two equivalent 4-channel amps with PFC achieved higher output levels (by up to 1000W) at higher efficiency ratings with music-like signals (12dB CF noise & multi-tone bursts).

The Linea did the best in the 10-second sine wave comparisons, by up to 360W or 1.96dB more output. This is all with 4x4 Ohm nominal loading.

This might also be interesting (Linea first):

For reference, I dug out a rare test of a modern Class H amplifier (Dynacord L3600FD):


The Dynacord is only 2-channel, but puts out the most on the sine wave 10-second test at 1225W. It does however only have a maximum of 600W of 'headroom' for the multi-tone tests and the music signal (12dB CF) tests. That's <1.7dB of dynamic range if you push the amp super hard.

Bear in mind that due to not having PFC, the Linea M series also doesn’t work on any input voltage mains supply. Instead it has two power supply settings, for either 110V or 220V that it auto-selects on power up.

Any chance you could post the links to where those graphs came from, looks interesting :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2022 at 10:21pm
They’re screenshots from my subscription to Production Partner magazine. Some of their content gets posted online:
https://www.production-partner.de/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatfreddiescat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2022 at 10:40am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

They’re screenshots from my subscription to Production Partner magazine. Some of their content gets posted online:
https://www.production-partner.de/

Thanks :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2022 at 4:48pm
So if we could kindly bring a halt to the thread jacking, and return to the topic title, regarding FFA 10 & Infinite 8 MK2 amps.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatfreddiescat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2022 at 6:21pm
Friends of mine replaced their Infinate 8's with 10K's and no complaints so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 August 2022 at 8:37pm
Guy on FB selling FFA10, to get Void 8MK2..Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote luton_soundman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 August 2022 at 9:35am
Tbf i was using the inf8 v2 for years as you know and heard but im thinking of going ffa10k. Will still probably keep a big torroidal for special occasions...Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatfreddiescat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 August 2022 at 9:52am
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Guy on FB selling FFA10, to get Void 8MK2..Confused

LOL and the amp merry go round continues.
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