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How do the X15’s sound

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Richard Hart View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 November 2005 at 5:44pm

Hi folks.

I'm thinking about building some X15's for live purposes, playing rock, indie/pop. How do the boxes sound, and how are they for feedback rejection.

If you could compare them to a commercially built box e.g. EV sx300, Martin F15 etc. what would you compare them to?

Cheers. Rich

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ceharden View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2005 at 6:21pm
They're probably a good choice for live/rock stuff in small to medium venues. Certainly one of the most versatile boxes.  I've just built some varients, check out the end of Dom's thread on multipurpose monitors.  IMO you don't need to make them as big as the X15 plans on this site since you're probably forcing the SN15MB to play lower than it really wants to.

Given my measurements and listening tests so far, I'd also recommend going for the 18Sound 1086XT horn as well.  Must admit I haven't heard the PH220 but the XT sounds very good.  Size wise they're definitely bigger than an Sx300 but definitely comparable in terms of sound level and quality.

Whereabouts are you, if you're down south at all you'd be welcome to come and have a listen to mine (well, once I've built the other one!!!)


Edited by ceharden - 09 November 2005 at 6:23pm
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Richard Hart View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Hart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2005 at 6:41pm

Originally posted by ceharden ceharden wrote:

IMO you don't need to make them as big as the X15 plans on this site since you're probably forcing the SN15MB to play lower than it really wants to.

Not sure what you mean. Do you mean reproduce lower frequencies than it wants to? If so, I was going to cross them and add some subs to them.

Would love to come and check your's out but unfortunately I'm in Manchester. Where abouts are you in case I'm ever down your way?

Thanks. Rich

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2005 at 8:05pm
Sorry, not the clearest explanation by me.  

The X15's are large cabinets and tuned quite low for a mid-top, this means you can use them full range if necessary.  However the woofer used in the cabinet (P-Audio SN15MB) is probably better off in a smaller cabinet tuned higher at the expense of low frequencies.  As you know, this isn't a problem if you cross them over and use subs.

For simplicity and versatility, you're probably best off putting them with some 15" or 18" reflex cabinets.  The Fane designs are a good start but you can design one easily round a driver of your choice.  I was a student until this year and have been playing with similar projects so I'm sure we can get you going with something good.

I'm in Southampton by the way.


Edited by ceharden - 09 November 2005 at 8:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Hart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2005 at 9:02pm

Nice one, cheers.

I'm currently running a rig consisting of two peavey 115 hysis subs loaded with JBL 2226H/J's and four home made boxes (not made by myself) with Eminence 15" Kappa LF in the mids and JBL 2446H/J compression drivers crossed at around 1.6K, and it sounds pretty awful! Kick drums don't give a good thorax shaking blast, and the tops give that kind of painful upper mid with vocals, especially females. One of the biggest problems I have is the feedback rejection, which is pretty bad resulting in problems when trying to pull the vocals out of the mix.

So.. I've decided to build a complete new system (as it's all I can afford), and sell the old one as components. I'm thinking to start with of building four 18" reflex subs (I'd like to build a couple of horns but this is unrealistic as a first time builder) and a couple of 15" tops and stacking them. I don't want to get this wrong as I'd lose a lot of money so finding the right design is important, that's why I'm torn between the X15's, and the 15" cabs on the fane website as both work out about the same cost.

My main concerns are feedback rejection, painful upper mid, and the max spl/efficiency of the cab.

Any suggestions are greatly recieved. Many thanks, Rich.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2005 at 9:17pm
It's quite funny how you're kinda in the same position as me and have similar kit.

First problem is those Kappa15LF's, absolutely no use at all as mids.  Before you buy anything else, try this:

Swap the JBL 2226's with the Kappa 15LF's in the subs.  The Kappa's are sub drivers, I have four here myself doing nothing.  The JBL's might sound a bit nicer on the mids.  Do you have an active crossover between the mids and tops? If so, move the crossover down to 1.2KHz (depending on your horns maybe even lower such as 800Hz)

I can immediately get the picture of the piercing high mids from the Kappa15LF/2446 combo, one of them is bad enough!!! Your feedback problems are probably because of this large peak.

So, your plan of action could be: Scrap the HiSys sub cabinet or at least take it apart and fix it together properly with some bracing inside!  Better still, use the four Kappa15LF's to make four single 15" reflex cabs.  They'll be fine til you can get some nicer drivers.

For the mids, you could build something using the 2446's if you don't mind their weight.  Best bet would be a three way mid top with a 15" or two 12" up to 800Hz, the 2446 on a decent sized horn up to 5kHz or so, then an Eminence Supertweeter or small 1" compression driver to do the rest.

You could go for a completely new design, but being also short of cash it might be best to minimise buying new drivers.

Hope this helps...

Chris
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Hart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2005 at 9:39pm

Good God, somebody up as late as me!

Right, I'll try swapping the JBL's and see how this goes for the time beeing. I'm uneasy lowering the x-over point lower than 1.2K (yes I'm activly crossing) because this brings the handling capabilities down to 50wrms per driver.

I'm keen to get rid of the 15" subs as I recon 18's will give me a better live kick drum (I could be wrong), and I'm under the impression that the top boxes have been really poorly designed, I guess is just the constant dissapointment I've had recently. I'll see what happens when I swap the drivers over, there may be no need to build new ones.

Have you any experience of the Fane 18" reflex cabs?

Chhers, Rich.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2005 at 9:53pm
Looking at the JBL spec sheet, the power handling is 100W Program from 500Hz upwards and 150W from 1kHz upwards.  Unless you're running them very hard (at which point they'd be very very loud) you'll be ok with a fairly low crossover.  I've run them down to 800Hz without issues. Hell, I've had them accidentallly wired to run the mids by a muppet and started the gig like that without blowing them!!!  One thing you need to watch is if you have a mixture of H and J versions, one is 6Ohm nominal and one is 12Ohm.  If you wire them in parallel you'll get an uneven power share between them.

For live kick drum the 15"s will generally give you more punch than an 18".  Kick drum for live work tends to be around the 60-80Hz region.  15" cabs will be fine for that.  Definitely bin the HiSys tho!!!

To run your cabs you'll need a decent EQ to tame the 2446, they can be made to sound a bit sweeter than they do flat.  If you do stick with the cabs you might want to think about fitting the supertweeter, would probably add a bit of sparkle back which the 2446 can't deliver.

Let me know how you get on...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Hart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2005 at 9:59pm

The're all 16ohm apart from one which is an 8, I suppose I can expect problems from that.

I'll have it up and running again in a couple of weeks so I'll keep you posted.

Cheers mate, Rich.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Hart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2005 at 10:05pm
aah... you've just alerted me through the imedence that the comps might well be 2426's which are the 1" version because they are definately 16 and 8 ohms. Does this change anything?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 6:48am
You need to check which compression driver they are, as there is a big difference between a 2446 (massive 2") and a 2426(1").  It does sound more likely you have the 1" especially if you normally cross at 1k6 and haven't complained about a hernia (2446 weighs 14kg without a horn!!!)

I know someone with another pair of 2226's lying around 2nd hand so if they work in the mids you could get another two for the other two boxes probably quite cheap.  I have seen them used in stage monitors and some boxes using them with the 2426 came up on google so should be ok.

Sounds like you can refurbish your mid-tops into something useable, add some subs and you'll have a much improved system.  Obviously if you have some money to spend there are upgrades you can make. 

Next time you get a chance maybe take some pics of the cabs as-is?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Hart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 12:17pm

Ok, some pictures of the boxes here. What i noticed when looking at plans for other 15" reflex boxes is that these seem to have a different trap shape, and have more holes cut around the driver and no ports on them.

The comps are definately 2426's not 2446's.

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Edited by Rich - 10 November 2005 at 12:56pm
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