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Laser laws / guidlines etc. |
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dave58921 
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Joined: 21 December 2009 Location: West Wales Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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 Topic: Laser laws / guidlines etc.Posted: 05 March 2011 at 3:54pm |
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Hey guys,
I've been looking into buying a laser, but It's really hard to find any information on the laws of operating a laser and guidlines for crowd scanning.
I've been looking at a 400mW Green laser from Laser UK. I've seen a couple of these in action and they are very impressive.
So far I've discovered there are 4 requirements of a class 3b laser:
1. Laser safety warning labels
2. Laser emissions indicator
3. They must have a keyswitch
4. They must have a remote interlock connector
The Laser UK laser I mentioned above doesn't have that remote interlock connector. And when in DMX mode, unless you tell it to blackout, it just shines a single dot out into the crowd which is rediculous!
With regards to crowd scanning, is it safe to crowd scan with a laser that powerful if you are only using shapes and fast scanning effects?
Cheers guys,
Dave
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norty303
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Joined: 18 August 2004 Location: Eastbourne Status: Offline Points: 8800 |
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Posted: 05 March 2011 at 4:22pm |
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There are quite a few bits of legislation which affect lasers, including a recent one about employees (bouncers?, bar staff?) being exposed to lasers which is more restrictive than existing legislation about laser display use. Download HSG95 from HSE website, this is basically what most licensing authorities base their restrictions on, although a bit outdated today in many opinions As far as crowd scanning is concerned: Thou shalt not scan the crowd with laser emissions above Maximum Permissible Exposure (MPE) levels - essentially 1mW/cm2 If thou shalt crowd scan, thou shalt have a suitable scan fail safety device installed that will prevent harmful beams entering the audience area that are above MPE. Whether people actually do that, and moreso, whether people actually enforce it is another matter - but if you have someones eye out, you will be required to demonstrate you complied, and be able to show how you complied. It sounds like the laser is TTL rather than analogue which is why you get the static beam. It is unlikely you'd be able to legitimately scan the crowd as you can't attenuate the beam power. However, you could use optics to diverge the beam and decrease power density |
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MattStolton
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Joined: 04 September 2010 Location: Walthamstow Status: Offline Points: 4207 |
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Posted: 05 March 2011 at 6:53pm |
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There is a similar guidance document about people receiving blinding doses of "normal" light, for example teachers using interactive white-boards and LCD projectors. Only a matter of time before stage blinders and even large scans get looked at (bad pun there, sorry), in terms of their MPE. Sadly, too many widely available (meaning cheap chinese) lasers from 30mW up, don't always scan. At some point in there built in program (STL) or from DMX pattern control, there is a very real danger of getting a serious straight beam. Blindness is not fun, blinding someone else could be "costly". Good on you for at least knowing that it may be unsafe though, and asking for help. Too many "DJs" don't know, but some how get away with it. I think the only way to be truly safe, is not to scan a crowd, and use lasers, especially anything over 5mW (IIRC), above head height + the height of a table/chair combo to stop an idiot trying to look into it. They would be stupid to do so, but you would still get the fine if HSE respond to an incident. |
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Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains" |
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Timebomb
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Joined: 11 October 2004 Location: Lancaster Status: Offline Points: 2763 |
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Posted: 05 March 2011 at 7:15pm |
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Stage lights can put out considerably more than 1mw/cm2, i worked out our new mac 250 kryptons will do about 20mw/cm2 white at 1 meter distance, and there only 250w lamps, 1200w units and all thease "beam" lights will put out a lot more than that, and there not moving fast like a laser beam so the exposure time will be a lot longer.
If HSE enforced MPE levels for lighting at the same levels as for lasers i recon pritty much every light in use would be againsed the rules. Ive been reading up on laser saftey quite a bit lately as weve built a few lasers recently and ive kinda come the the conclusion that you cant croud scan legaly in the UK at any power level thats worth looking at. Also pritty much every laser that is croud scanning in the UK is breaking the rules. |
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James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
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norty303
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Joined: 18 August 2004 Location: Eastbourne Status: Offline Points: 8800 |
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Posted: 05 March 2011 at 7:38pm |
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Regular lighting fixtures are slightly different however, as the reason why laser light is so dangerous to the eye is because of the way the eye focusses coherent light. Incoherent sources are less dangerous. That said, I think theres a new moving head fixture out that the manufacturers recommend 12m clearance to prevent fire and health issues. IF you look at the ILDA safety site, you'll see that there are recommendations to adopt a '10 times' MPE for laser displays. Whilst only guidelines and recommendations, a number of Euopean show Co's now use that. I guess problems only arise if you injure someone. Check out http://www.laserist.org/ for more info, there's a lot of good info for non-members there. The paper I referred to is this one http://www.laserist.org/files/audience-scanning_overview_latest.pdf Also, to give you a sense of how much power gives how much hazard, download a free program called Lasersafe PC and plug a 400mW 532 laser with 2.5mm diamter and 1.5mr divergence scanning a circel and see at what distance that becomes under MPE..... Of course, to accurately assess your shows, you'll also need a power meter. I've had '100mW' lasers doing nearly 300mW when measured. You currently have no idea if your '400mW' laser is really 400mW. |
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My laser stuff: Frikkin Lasers
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George DC
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Joined: 18 June 2008 Location: Radstock - Bath Status: Offline Points: 95 |
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Posted: 05 March 2011 at 7:58pm |
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+1 on the HSG95, definitely worth a read.
Its good that you show an interest in finding out about the legislation etc, so many people don't seem to bother these days, its amazing that there aren't more accidents. Also have a look at the Laserworld stock, we are one of the UK reps Good luck
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dave58921
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Joined: 21 December 2009 Location: West Wales Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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Posted: 05 March 2011 at 9:18pm |
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cheers for all the replies. I think TimeBomb is porbably correct when he says " pritty much every laser that is croud scanning in the UK is breaking the rules."
I get the feeling the majority of people just overlook the danger and because there obviously hasn't been many, if any at all, cases of people being blinded (none that I know of anyway) by a laser show, as the odds of this happening are so small with most displays. But it's when that one person does go blind because of a laser show, I'm sure there will be a lot more hype about the health and safety.
I think realistically crowd scanning with a fast laser effect is not going to become a problem until either some idiot decides to try and get rite up against the laser, which if rigged properly should be completely out of reach anyway. Or if the mirror fails and the laser ends up shining a single 400mW laser beam directly into the crowd.
And am I correct in thinking, like with everything else in the sound and lighting industry, as long as you cover yourself by sticking within the set laws and guidlines, have insurance in place and can prove you took all the neccessary precautions to minimize the risk of someone being injured, surely then you won't end up personally forking out for compensation and/or have a law suit filed against you?
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dave58921
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Posted: 05 March 2011 at 9:32pm |
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a question I forgot to ask, I spoke to a company who own a couple of 1w lasers. They said something about needing a license to operate any lasers. Is this correct?
Cause if it is, then there are literally hundreds of DJs and most likely hire companies breaking this law.
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George DC
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Posted: 05 March 2011 at 9:35pm |
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The company I work for does 1.5w+ laser shows, I wasn't aware of any licence we have?
I will have to check with my boss, but I have never heard of it!
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dave58921
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Posted: 05 March 2011 at 9:38pm |
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I can't find anything online about any specific licenses etc. He also mentioned that the venue has to be licensed for the use of lasers. Is this something that is true?
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George DC
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Posted: 05 March 2011 at 9:51pm |
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Hmm does sound odd.
I think there may be some truth in that, I know certain venues need special permission and inspection. For example lasers brought in for Black Eyed Peas and Rhianna at Wembley Stadium and O2 needed to be 100% zero crowd scan and were inspected by EH officers and council before they were allowed to be used. |
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bass traffic
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Posted: 05 March 2011 at 10:13pm |
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I remember the laser show at glastonbury 97 basically going on all night firing beams into the sky. Was weird cos they were all coming from a single source but started to look parallel further away and even started to look like they curved back down to earth! That could have been the acid though!
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It's really hard to find any information on the laws of operating a laser and guidlines for crowd scanning