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Tapped horn for PD 186 ? |
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GwanStefani 
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Joined: 09 February 2015 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 64 |
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 Topic: Tapped horn for PD 186 ?Posted: 17 April 2015 at 8:58pm |
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Hi, got a pair of PD 186's, presumably the 186/2. Having a hard time finding a box hat suits the driver and my needs. Essentially I want to be able to go as low as possible and as loud as possible, don't we all ?
When I got them the plan was to put them in a pair of folded horns, I've since found out the folded horn isn't really worth it unless used in sets of four, and even then, it won't go as low as I want it to. I've been searching for an alternative box, one that will reach down to 30Hz. The G Sub is an obvious choice, though we'd prefer two speakers so we can have individual stacks if need be, rather than always having to be one stack. The G sub also doesn't offer us as much height as we would like, not a huge problem really, but a contributing factor none the less. We've been looking around at various designs and came across this JBell tapped horn  We put it through HornResp and the results came out looking really nice, 30 - 100ish Hz at around 118db. Just wondering if anyone has experience of using these ? Is this a viable option ? Can anyone suggest some other alternatives (beyond cutting a G Sub in half) ? I also looked at the Startec Super Bass Horn and wondered, would the 186 work in this box ? Is this box like the 186 horn, i.e needs to be in groups of four or more ? Cheers |
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mini-mad
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Joined: 13 July 2012 Location: london Status: Offline Points: 6861 |
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Posted: 17 April 2015 at 9:07pm |
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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.
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mini-mad
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Posted: 17 April 2015 at 9:13pm |
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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.
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GwanStefani
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Posted: 18 April 2015 at 5:25pm |
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Don't suppose someone with a better grasp of Horn Resp would mind running the 186/2 through the JBell design I've posted above ? As I said before, the results we got when we ran it through were really nice though we don't really know what we're doing, would be nice to see if someone who does know gets similar results, cheers
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T-Bone
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Posted: 19 April 2015 at 2:55am |
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Building Cubo Sub now will be loaded new in box PD 186 version 1 bought this and other PD's late 2008. Shouls sound loud in small venues up to 200 peeps weddings.
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BASS, how low can you go!
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Xoc1
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Posted: 19 April 2015 at 10:26pm |
 The J Bell Stadium horns are X-Max limited when used with the original Eminence 3015 driver. The design is fairly basic. I think you could do better than this. The PD186 driver just might fit - the baffle board at 18 in long is slightly shorter than the across flats dimension of the PD186. Bit of a 63Hz dip when simming the PD186 in the sim you posted - Not sure how accurate the sim is as I don't think I ever unfolded the Stadium horn box. Hornresp shows the PD186 reaching Xmax at theoretical 320W in the J Bell so maybe 700W or so real Hi pass 4 order would be 28hz. You do know that the internal volume is 573 litres! |
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GwanStefani
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Posted: 21 April 2015 at 5:26pm |
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Hi Xoc, just seen your post. Pretty new to the game so don't fully understand what you're saying but will do my best to keep up.
We're now trying to build our own horn around the 186/2 as, like you say, the design is fairly basic. And huge. Size isn't really a massive problem, if it could be a bit smaller than the JBell it would be nice though. We've been swimming stuff in HornResp and have been getting some pretty smooth results at around 115db down to 40 but are struggling to keep it smooth towards 30. We've looked at some tutorials, like this: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1212465-simple-tapped-horn-tutorial-using-hornresp.html but kind of feel they are targeted more towards home audio than PA. Our only real limit is that it fits through a door and into a SWB Ford transit. I'm wondering if maybe you could give us some pointers ? What should we be doing to keep it smooth ? Which driver parameters should we be focusing on ? Are there any in particular that will directly correspond to the design ? Which parameters can be transferred in to approximations of horn segments sizes like mouth area etc. ? Most importantly, is the 186 a suitable driver for this application ? Cheers
Edited by GwanStefani - 21 April 2015 at 6:41pm |
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Xoc1
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Posted: 22 April 2015 at 1:47pm |
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Choices Choices...
Unfortunately loud and low trade off each other - But both are helped by large. When you give the driver a healthy signal you could quite easily run out of x-mech. The 6 fold speaker in post 2 of the Flat to 30 thread posted above is like the Jbell design but adds a couple of extra baffle boards to get the path length up. Might be worth putting your driver parameters into that sim to see how it will perform. There is a lot to learn in Hornresp . But if you are going with a established fold then you can work out roughly how your driver will perform. Try setting the power to 400W and then look at the driver diaphragm displacement. The important figure is the first hump around 35-40hz adjust the power settings until this is at x-max. Then go back to the power graph and run the filter wizard under tools. Look at diaphragm displacement and hi pass active filter, set the filter for 4th order or whatever you can set your crossover to and as you bring up the cutoff frequency the displacement will come down until you have 2 equal looking peaks at around x-max. still in the filter wizard switch back to the response and you can see roughly what to expect from your driver.
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Hemisphere
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Posted: 22 April 2015 at 6:18pm |
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For the size weight cost and everything else, a set of two G-Sub halves might be worth considering - Less efficient yes but you can put more Watts into them and if the height is really an issue you can adjust it to exactly the height you need without spoiling the design. They'll sound better and cross over higher too.
Edited by Hemisphere - 22 April 2015 at 6:19pm |
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Xoc1
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Posted: 22 April 2015 at 8:44pm |
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When comparing a tapped horn and a reflex cabinet there are some differences.
The tapped horn will be bigger The tapped horn will be more efficient than the reflex cab, and being more efficient there is less thermal compression. The tapped horn will usually have a lower hi-pass filter setting. The tapped horn will not suffer from port compression The reflex cab will be able to cross over higher and this can be a deciding factor, if the mid tops can't make it down to about 100hz then the bigger tapped horns will be a poor match. As for G-subs sounding better no comment!  |
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Hemisphere
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Posted: 22 April 2015 at 9:49pm |
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highlander_S
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 11:28am |
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Hi Xoc1,
It seems that to not exceed xmax when running the pd186/2 in the flat to 30 design you suggested trying above (though not necassarily using this it is a good example for a question i've had for a while), i have to run the "Maximum SPL" power at around 150W...do all tapped horns have this limit to their power? Is it something that can be ignored, or is there a way around it? Cheers |
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Xoc1 wrote: