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21" woofers not sounding good
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noviygera View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 January 2024 at 7:49pm


This may be a skewed test but I would like to hear your thoughts on 21" woofers for subwoofer use, below 100hz. 

Let's talk about quality of sound, NOT quantity.
It is the second time I tried a 21" woofer. 1st time was Pyle 21", this time it's Beyma 21". To me, the 21" woofers do not sound good both times I tried. 
Sure, they are louder than a 12" but the 12" is playing cleaner more defined bass.  

The 21" sound muddy and one note. What it wrong? They look good on paper. This is a good spec sheet from Beyma and this is my 21" driver:
https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fichas_Tecnicas/21PW1400FE.PDF

low distortion, demodulating ring, etc... All looks good, freq response into the midrange...

I could be wrong but I am not deaf. What's going on?
Is 21" woofer too big to sound good? 

MORE CONTEXT:
My 1st test is no enclosure.
1. Holding each driver in my hands, off the floor, facing my face.
2. I was hoping I would get sound and I did!
3. My source is a variety of music with good bass content.

4. Crossover is a BagEnd infra processor. It is a crossover and EQ in one box. The crossover is around 100 Hz and the EQ is designed to compensate for a sealed box roll off. This is how all bagEnd infra processors work.

5. Both the 12 inch woofer and the 21 inch woofer have been modeled in winISD software and are appropriate for a sealed box with the said Bag End Infra processor. 

6. The variable here is the box size and with the correct box size the rolloff is designed to be about 65 Hz. Of course the 21 inch woofer will have a larger box but the target Q is .7 and a rolloff around 65 Hz.

7. The amplifiers a hefty MC2 T1500.

I have a feeling that with 100 Hz crossover, the 21 inch woofers do not sound good. Can you share thoughts on the proper use of 21" woofers for sound quality?

thanks!!

Herman
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Points: 2184 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fat_brstd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2024 at 10:34pm
These need to be tested in a suitably designed enclosure, free air testing with no box is not a viable way to make informed decision on sound quality.
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MarjanM View Drop Down
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What do you mean by 65Hz rolloff? Up or down?
Marjan Milosevic
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Points: 5365 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2024 at 2:29am

A 21-inch woofer is not going to sound like a 12-inch woofer. The whole idea of choosing a larger driver is to achieve lower frequencies in which, a smaller driver has difficulty producing.


Even if the TS Parameters of the 12-inch woofer you are comparing the 21-inch woofers to are identical, the size differential of the two drivers will lead to a different sound tonally.


Best Regards,


Elliot Thompson
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Contour View Drop Down
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Points: 677 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Contour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2024 at 3:41pm
Also testing free air does not work, woofers need a cabinet to produce the lows, without cabinet you only hear mid range performance, which a 12 inch typically does better than 21 inch. 
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noviygera View Drop Down
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Points: 59 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote noviygera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2024 at 3:54pm
The BagEnd infra processor compensates for the roll off of a sealed subwoofer that is tuned to roll off below about 65hz. BagEnd makes all their subs tuned to this so a single Infra processor works across all their subs, from 8” to 18”. Also one can just buy their processor and build the subs
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Points: 5365 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2024 at 6:23pm
If I recall, BagEnd used Eminence Speakers in the past. You need to contact BagEnd on their suggestion for a larger speaker if you want a 21-inch driver as you are using their processor. Buying speakers without having an understanding on loudspeaker design principals will lead you to a lot of wasted money. 

Best Regards,   
Elliot Thompson
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I use B and C 21 in Ported Horn Cabs and They CRANK out the Bass!!!!!
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Peter Jan View Drop Down
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Points: 1019 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2024 at 3:03pm
Several years ago after testing a handful of B&C, Beyma, RCF, 18Sound 21" drivers, I came to the conclusion 21" speakers can shine between ~25-60 Hz, but start sounding horrible above that. A respons graph says what SPL you can expect, but it says nothing about how it sounds.
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noviygera View Drop Down
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Points: 59 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote noviygera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2024 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

What do you mean by 65Hz rolloff? Up or down?


Marjan,
I mean the sealed box of the required volume will roll off the lows (high pass) around 65hz. This is how BagEnd designs their subwoofer systems and the processor does the inverse function so even though the sub is a sealed box, it's essentially eq flat to 10hz or so.
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noviygera View Drop Down
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Points: 59 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote noviygera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2024 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by Peter Jan Peter Jan wrote:

Several years ago after testing a handful of B&C, Beyma, RCF, 18Sound 21" drivers, I came to the conclusion 21" speakers can shine between ~25-60 Hz, but start sounding horrible above that. A respons graph says what SPL you can expect, but it says nothing about how it sounds.

Peter,
Good observation! Looking at the response graph of the Beam 21", it plays so high, I was sure the mid bass would sound clean. Not so. Your estimate of 25-60hz might be in point. Were talking about a 21" woofer. Why not 20hz? 

What woofer size and brand did you like for the range of 20-120hz? 
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Peter Jan View Drop Down
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Points: 1019 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2024 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by noviygera noviygera wrote:

.... Were talking about a 21" woofer. Why not 20hz? 

What woofer size and brand did you like for the range of 20-120hz? 


20-120 Hz ... closed cabs ... is this for home-hifi use ?
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