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help wanted setting limiters |
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gimmebass 
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Joined: 03 May 2022 Location: netherlands Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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 Topic: help wanted setting limitersPosted: 17 January 2024 at 6:30am |
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good day,
i tried google and have read almost every topic about setting limiters but still i'm lost..... first my rig: 8x mhb46 loaded with 18sound 18lw1400 4x community sls960 vhf100 xta dp226 powersoft k2/3/10 i used the calculator from function one and got +9.2db limiter setting.....tis sounds a bit high..... looked at the manual of the martin wlx with the 18tbx100 driver and the stated +7db for the dx1 processor. on the hornplans calculator i get +5.3db when i'm looking at others ways like measuring output on say 50hz tone with an true rms voltmeter without load it should be 89.3 volts for the stated 1000w aes of the 18lw1400? the setting is now +5db and running fine, i still have the idea there some more in them... can someone explain me how to find the correct setting and whats the way to get there for future settings. i know the k10 is more than capable of blowing al the 18lw1400's thanks in advance!!
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_Natty_
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Joined: 01 April 2007 Status: Offline Points: 667 |
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Posted: 17 January 2024 at 10:07am |
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this is a good subject im interested too in understand better this limiter setting's.
ive same lms, and i use k10 on bass, on scoop tbx100 loaded. as first point did you read the dp226 manual?
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gimmebass
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Posted: 17 January 2024 at 10:49am |
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yes i did, it was 40\41db - gain 32db also 8\9db limiter, i'm a bit careful on cranking it open and hoping for the best.
there are so many opinions and ways to measure or determine the right setting.peak or rms limiting, measure with or without load, vented or closed back. same goes for the sls960 tops, never saw a fuse lit up nor had the desire to crank them up even higher evenless the would comfortable do that. with my mhb cabs you dont hear distortion easy or if the driver went beyond xmax, i have the idea that they need to be drivin hard to get oomph out of them but they keep getting louder when i give them more.
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Tedski
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Joined: 15 December 2006 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 453 |
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Posted: 18 January 2024 at 6:05pm |
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Why not trust the math? If your amps are set correctly (output gain), you feed the calculator the correct values, you keep your HPF sensibly, you should be fine. XTA Auto time constraints ON. I have only ever used the math, never used tones or multimeters. I knock 1 db off the calculated value just for peace of mind, and give 'r. Edit: To be fair, I have not often worked with public design cabs loaded with off the shelf drivers, I'm sure there are variables like build quality, design quirks etc that influence how hard the drivers life is. Just saying that the math is sound. Edit 2:
I don't build cabs, I use them, and none of these things are interesting to me. Only
RMS/AES limiting to not break stuff. Peak limiting is to retain
dynamics at limit, and you can dive in to a deep pool with these, but you cannot set that on your DP226, so don't worry about
it. Trust the XTA, double check your calculations, slowly raise the limiter if you are hesitant.If you start worrying about peak limiting, you didn't bring enough rig. I hope this helps. Feel free to message me.
Edited by Tedski - 18 January 2024 at 9:46pm |
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gimmebass
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Posted: 19 January 2024 at 11:05am |
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thanks for your reply,
all the lw1400's are new so i'm very careful. the xta is set on auto and will set the limiter @ 7/8db what makes the xta peak limiter differ from the bss minidrive/jbl dsc/mach m20.06 peak limiter? last year on a carnaval parade the peaklimiters didn't keep anything safe even on safe settings. we sold all our bss units and bought 3 xta dp's and put new batteries in them. the community papers are handy, they state the max voltage to set the limiter. i still have a question: if you use the calculator for 1000w aes the voltage wil be 89volts, but do you use this value for peak or rms limiting? i have read about rms limiting and peak combined, the peak limiter should be set 3db higher? |
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Tedski
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Posted: 19 January 2024 at 4:56pm |
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No problem, limiters are important. You said you have 2-series XTA's right? On the 226/224 you can't set peak limiting separately, the limiter setting is RMS, just trust the XTA limiting scheme, it works great. On 4 series XTA's, DP448 etc you can set peak separately. The limiter you set when using AES or RMS is the AES or RMS limit. Peak limit is usually 3db over, so TWICE the AES power. So when you use the calculator using 1000w AES, you will get the limiter setting for 1000w AES. This is not peak. Peak would be limit +3db, so 2000W. Normally a driver can handle super short busts of double the power. Like I said it's to preserve a bit of dynamics at limit. Peak is pretty mush a brick wall limiter, RMS/AES is not. Carnival parades are notorious, usually for dodgy generators and weird power situations killing equipment and drivers. I'm not sure you can blame BSS for that. I have never used volt for limiter calculations, just dBu, but they are a function of each other. Again, if your driver is 1000w AES, and you calculate a limiter setting using that, the setting will be for AES, not peak. Use the AES/RMS setting in the XTA dp226. And the usual rules apply, if you see a lot of limiting, but you want it louder, you need more boxes. 1 or 2 db higher on the limiter usually wont make a ton of difference on the dancefloor, but could kill your nice expensive drivers. Even if your mate who says he has loads of experience is telling you to up the limiter. Edit: Speaking of 'that mate with loads of experience', the XTA's have very nice security settings, you can lock limiters behind a code. Just saying ;) Edit 2: Let me stress something for a second, limiters are not THE answer to blown drivers. They are a big part, but signal chain integrity, stable power and proper high pass filters also play a big part. Edited by Tedski - 19 January 2024 at 5:36pm |
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Tedski
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Posted: 20 January 2024 at 7:26pm |
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Found this to help visualize the difference between RMS and peak. Hope it helps.  Edited by Tedski - 20 January 2024 at 7:27pm |
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APC321
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Joined: 24 August 2013 Location: West Midlands Status: Online Points: 797 |
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Posted: 21 January 2024 at 6:53pm |
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Tedski says: "Carnival parades are notorious, usually for dodgy generators and weird power situations killing equipment and drivers."
I think that this is a very interesting point. Have used a system before where the limiters were set to a fixed value. The system was used in an indoor venue with stable mains power. The limiters did their job - no amplifer clip. The same system with the same limiter settings was then used for a generator powered event. There was a voltage drop on peak transients of the music (ie when there was a current peak) due to a generator being provided which was not of sufficient capacity. It was easy to see this as I was using a mains distro with analogue voltage and current meters. This time there was clip. Fortunately I saw this straight away, and adjusted the limiters - all good now. I hate to think what could have happened if I had not seen this straight away. Edited by APC321 - 21 January 2024 at 10:58pm |
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Tedski
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Posted: 26 January 2024 at 6:53pm |
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I think like me a lot of guys on this forum could tell you stories of very stressful moments and very expensive repairs that have been down to generators shitting themselves and the backup 'failed'. Also at the 'big show everybody pro' level.
Edited by Tedski - 26 January 2024 at 7:16pm |
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gimmebass
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Posted: 29 January 2024 at 11:08am |
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hi guys,
sorry for the late reply, caught a nasty flu. but i'm better en working hard to get everything ready for carnaval. i have the 2 series indeed, thanks for your tips. off course we use passwords, do our own power distribution. the generators are stabalized diesel with way to much power for the job. we use 3x16a with automatic fuses, 4mm2 power cable,also 4mm2 for subs, 2,5mm2 for tops. i did some testing on one of the carnaval racks to push the limiter, but they didn't led anything clip. set the sub limiter to +7db gain 32db on the crest 8200 +3db on the sls960 and +1db on the rs220, the calculator showd more but this setting is still insanely loud. should be fine like you said. other wagen gets the k10,k3 en the rest of the gear isn't rented. next task wil be phase measuring of the sub/top. this summer we had an plopping noise on our speakers, tis was later on solved, problem was that the generator was not earthed and gave some loop with the pioneer mixer and the dimmer pack....so i get your point. |
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gimmebass
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Posted: 22 February 2024 at 6:13am |
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hi all,
carnaval is over, nothing broke down. all the movingheads and led bars survived! ended up with the limiter on +8, they did 12 parades hitting the limiter sometimes. +7db on the other wagen, the acl light of the crest sometimes blinked on +8. must say i had my doubts with the mhb46 outside, but they performed not bad but only when pushed. the sls960 tops performed excellent as always.
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16x mhb 46, mach slingshot ms1262
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Tedski
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Joined: 15 December 2006 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 453 |
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Posted: 22 February 2024 at 10:55pm |
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Good to hear!
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gimmebass wrote: