Budget 18s in gsub?

TheAmazingGanjaMan wrote: is Canadas power really that bad? 2 x 600w speakers will trip breakers???

Its OUTDOORS genny power.

So yes, 4 fully loaded amps will trip the brakers, so will buying a bigger amp (a 30amp and a 20amp on a large genny) so thats why I only use 3 amps. The goal here would be to have Four of these cabs, 4ohm per cab, wired 2 each channel, 2ohm per channel, 4 dual 18 cabs for that one amp that I have free to power speakers (within my power limits). I've been using this amp already with rental 8ohm single subs, 8 of them to the one amp, 4x 8ohm per side at 2ohm, so the goal here is to reduce my need to continuously rent subs by building some and possibly have better/easier to move ones by building double 18s. I'd like to make a case mod so that they have handles on the top and a pair of casters on the back corner that is cut and made flat so you can lean them back like a dolly like my double 15s are. 

I wish there was more affordable passive options out there but everybody ether wants a bank (like 3k for a pair of peavey dual 15s for example) or the gear is powered and due to that isn't worth my attention due to the power draw being too high for outdoor use (like yorkvilles ls801p's that are everywhere or pk's dual 18 bins that seem to be the new Nike or Adidas of speakers in BC here) so I'm back to looking at building my own speakers again.

Its a idea I have re-visited over the years, mainly in the winter off season, but I've never pulled the trigger yet since I've been able to find used cases locally and put replacement drivers in them or get them reconed for decent prices. I can find maxim 1000 dual 15 full range cabs for around $300 canadian a pair and they are screaming loud, I can't max them for close range listening so my problem is not full range cabs since they are plentiful around here to buy used. However I rarely find subs, my first pair being full range PR418's that have a 18 inch driver, a 10, bullet and horn, then I found a pair of yorkville dual 18s that are my main subs atm with 500rms drivers so 4ohm 1k rms per cab, 2k peak. I just picked up a pair of yorkville yx18s subs today, haven't even really pound em yet but they are sold locally for $600/ea and I picked up the pair for $300/pair, I know sounds crazy but I did a test on them before hand and they sound good and have orginal drivers so I figure I can at least get my money back for em later. Weird thing about the yx18s is that they are 6ohm cabs, I donno if thats a wiring thing or if the drivers are legitimately 6ohm but I'm having to dedicate one channel of my amp to these two subs (3ohm, 2ohm is as low as it goes so I cant stack anymore).. I could alternatively be renting 4 cabs for that channel, so I mean I have less but in the long run I'm saving on rentals... Alternatively I could be powering two dual 18 cabs off this, I'd much rather have a 4x cab wall of matching dual 18s instead of the hodge podge of whatever I can find locally for a reasonable price, I mean finding matching dual 15's are easy, they are everywhere, but subs are either going to be one of the below

a)
Massively out of my budget

b)
Powered so its not worth my time due to power restrictions

c)
Built by me

I'm trying to pick C here but I'm not sure everybody whos posting here is following the build idea I'm after of having a close range listening wall of multiple speakers INSTEAD of a couple high powered drivers.

Elliot Thompson wrote: You live in Canada. Just buy from a reputable Canadian Loudspeaker Company http://www.tr.ca/ Rockville Speakers is in the same class as Pyramid Speakers.  Best Regards,

Thanks for this, I had no idea these guys existed but I'll try calling about the drivers tomorrow, the 550w ones they have look really good, so it all comes down to that price haha.

nickyburnell wrote: Will Thomann not ship to you? https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_speaker_185008a.htm https://forum.speakerplans.com/thomanns-cheap-18-driver-in-gsub_topic42468.html

No idea but at 133euros each, that would be $210 each canadian, I could get 2-3 rockvilles for that. I mean 1 vs 1 the thomann's are prob better, but verse 2-3 in either single reflexes or a dual 18? I'm not so sure, I mean for the price of 2 of thomann's I could have 5-6 of the rockvilles... I mean thats the logic behind him not buying the fane xd's right? Was costing him like a 1/3 or so. 

JonB67 wrote: All this speculation and suggestion is totally pointless until one thing is settled: How much do you have to spend? You've said what your budget isn't, but not what it is. You can't be helped until you answer this really.

 

Great question.

I do not have 1k+ to spend per cab as I already stated this is out of my budget so I'd like to spend less then say $500 per cab. I'm only seeing self powered dual 18s around 2k+ american so add a extra $500, for that same $2500 (plus shipping/duty) I could build eight (8) dual 18 cabs, thats 16x drivers and I'd have money left over. There is nothing in my area that fits my needs, everything is self powered, nobody locally makes dual 18s that I have access to that are 1) reasonably priced and 2) within my power limits of 400-600w/ea driver (800-1200w/ea cab) so this continuously leads me over the years to thinking about building subs.

The rockville dual 18 cab, priced out is costing me around $350 but it leaves me with a half sheet for a 2nd cab so I could build a 2nd cab by only buying one sheet of birch instead of two, making the 2nd one even cheaper, I'd estimate I could get both cabs built for around $600, for sure under $700 for both dual 18 cabs.

At that price I could build a couple every 2-3 months till I was able to swap out all my hodge podge'd gear in a year or so.

I think the problem everyone here is missing is that if I "take their advise" and just get some high powered 18s instead of looking for high efficiency 400w-600w drivers, then I would have to remove more speakers from the setup and reduce the size of something I'm trying to expand the size of to have more area that is next to the speakers. I'd also be able to buy less of them, a payment plan even in monthly payments would prevent any other gear upgrades from happening while also keeping the system visually smaller, having less area in front of the speakers.

Again this is OUTDOORS. There is no room to max out or to hold the sound. So having a couple high powered drivers isn't as good of a idea as a wall of close range listening drivers for what I'm doing with them. A few cabs is NOT better then alot of cabs just purely due to having a wider bass note, more room for people to be right in front of it.

I mean the whole reason why I do passive instead of self powered speakers is for massive efficiency. I could do 3-4 yorkville ls108p's instead of a wall of speakers and it would be massively less impressive then multiple times that amount of passive.

midas wrote: From what I have seen the sb1000 is very inefficient. 95db or something. You are seriously expecting to get 20 - 30 hz out of a g sub with cheap crap drivers???? Dream on. 4 scoops with the best 18’s can’t do that.  G sub is tuned for 50 hz. I would think you would be better looking at a better 15 inch driver and making something like a push pull.  And if you are asking for advise the least you could do is listen to some of it given. Looks like you have your mind set on those crap drivers.  Instead of 8 crap drivers why not get 2 decent ones and go from there.

 

From what I hear ya the new sb1001's ect are all power monsters due to the 18sound drivers they use in them now.

However the first generation of sb1000's did not and was my understanding that these where more around the 500-600w range making it a 1k-1.2k rms cab that people obviously threw more at as program.

The reason why I bring up the sb1000's is since they are array subs, meant to be stacked together much like what I would like to do.

I have looked at the push pull and other 15 designs, dual 15 subs is another option I have been thinking about since they are more commonly found within the specs I'm looking for, however I'd like to see this thread through before derailing it on the many 15 inch drivers that could be out there.

I hear you saying I'm not "listening to advise" but its just simply that I don't want to have 2-3 high powered 18s as replacement for a wall of them, I've tried it with rentals, OUTDOORS it was NOT as nice NOR anywhere near as impressive for ~CLOSE RANGE LISTENING~ since only half the people can get near the sub, its not as wide of a bass note and thus less people can enjoy it outdoors since its not indoors maxing the room. Outdoors eats up sound, what I need is sub bass on the area directly in front of the stage, about 20 feet wide... How does one use 1 single 18 to spread across 20 feet so everybody can be in front of the subs? You don't anywhere near as well as a line of 8 of them and it won't look anywhere near as impressive, I mean if you show up to a party and you look at the stage and only see one lonely sub wouldn't that look alot less impressive then a line of 18s? Plus then you'd be coupling 8 speakers for db increase and lower hz, those are all great things... So what am I missing aside of you guys all being too lazy to move multiple cabs and saying one cab is better then multiples due to moving less/less setup?

And honestly I don't really care what drivers I use in the long run but I don't really want to be spending more then $100-150 Canadian (about 30% more then usd) and those rockville drivers I can get a PAIR for $150, roughly $75/ea canadian so they seem like a insane budget speaker that I can't find a reason why the hate on them aside of them being cheap... Unless I'm missing something from the specs? Again I'd be totally into another speaker but trying to find a 18 inch driver even at usd $100 is pretty hard, most of the ones I see have magnets on them that look dwarfed on the back of a 18 basket so they don't "seem" like a better option to me having smaller magnets and/or voice coils then the rockvilles.

Edited by saintzoilus - 24 November 2017 at 7:10am

Mikkel wrote: Been looking on the canadian ebay foe ya and found these - ttps://m.ebay.ca/itm/Peavey-18-Lo-Max-RB-Replacement-Speaker-Basket-00560410-/272854488511?nav=SEARCH Excellent specs, free shipping and price seems good. I know they are high wattage but honestly buying quality is the way to go and just power them the best you can. Remember: the difference between 600w and 1200w is only 3 db, and thats not counting power compression! Plus im almost certain the peavey will have better sensitivity that the rockvilles. Its obviously your money and you should go with how comfortable you are with the prices, its an expensive hobby we all have! I would certainly try the company elliot linked too as well, they may be able to do a deal on bulk orders.

Thanks for looking, however those are Replacement Recone kits, the idea is you unscrew the magnet off the back and screw in the new basket without having to do glue recone ect, you could have it back up and running the same night is the theory if you had one on standby.

Funny enough I had their first generation of these when they had metal dust caps in the middle, a "exetremely husky woman" got up and started dancing on them and busted through the top panel of the 18 cab, smashing it into 3 bits and getting her stuck in the sub for a short amount of time... And thats what I came back to, was gona ask her not to dance on them, walking towards her and BAM goes right through it. I kept the 18s from it and trashed the case, she rekt one of the 18s straight up so I just trashed the bin and unscrewed the magnet from the back... I still got those magnets but they are like "old" and rusted n shit, donno if I'd trust new baskets on them in all honesty lol, I mean the circle line that the voice coil would go into has like shit in it so I've just been using it as a shop magnet to hold metal tools lol!

levyte357- wrote: For a start,  seeing as OP is looking for drivers for reflex cab, might be an idea, to be looking at drivers with T/S parms ideally suited for purpose. B&C 18TBX100, is more suited to horn loaded cabs. B&C 18PZB100 is a great reflex driver. Even if looking for budget driver, would suggest only looking at drivers, with parameters similar to the following: B&C 18PZB100 B&C 18PS100 FANE 18XB RCF L18P300 There will of course be other manufacturers/models, but those would be my first choice.

What do you think would be more powerful,  Four of those rockvilles in two dual 18s or One of those 18PS100? How about 5-6 of those rockvilles or ONE of those B&C 18PZB100?

Just how bad do you think these are? Cuz for the price I'm wondering how one driver could keep up with 5-6 in 3x dual 18 cabs for *Outdoor *Close range listening where you don't have a room to max out. And I say this from experience since I own two of them already and have tried them in different cabs, putting them verse what are very expensive yorkville speakers ($450ea) and they are very loud, you can have the Four $450 yorkville speakers going but when I turn on the two rockvilles you can notice them going on, admittedly they are kind of punchy but I DID cut them off at 40hz due to the internal cross over, could be due to the case they are in as well. Is there something in the specs your seeing that I'm missing? Again confused why everybody is automaticaly trashing on these while I see posts supporting dayton drivers for example that I view as trash from experience, like the dcs450, buddy of mine has a pair of those so for shits n giggles we took them out and put them head to head by putting both the rockvilles in one of my dual 18s and both the dayton's in my other dual 18 and I'd play one, then turn the other up, then turn the 1st one off, then turn it back up. What this showed me was that the rockvilles was the louder speaker, they over powered the daytons to the point where you could notice the rockvilles turn on when it was only the daytons playing but you could barely notice the daytons turn on when it was just the rockvilles playing, both cabs side by side. So I mean this makes me wonder about things since again most people on this forum will say things like xmax being "the thing" to look for but yet these daytons have 8.25mm of xmax yet upon maxing the amp (one tick on the knob below clip limiter light) the rockvilles where noticably louder despite the daytons moving more by at least a 1/3d visually. Thats a $60usd driver beating a $125usd driver so in my opinion having two or four rockvilles would be nicer then having one or two daytons since they seem to beat them one vs one.

"to be looking at drivers with T/S parms ideally suited for purpose."

What exactly makes a driver ideally suited? I mean as I just clearly pointed out xmax isn't everything when the dayton drivers, while having more xmas, is not as loud as the rockville drivers, with the same wattage given to both, in the same dual 18 bass reflex cab.

So if its not xmax and its a combination of things, how does one find a new driver without test buying every driver? I mean you just told me that those drivers are suited for that, what in the specs shows that? Or is that just parroting speakers you've seen others use without knowing why?

Found it in the end!

This is a sim of the rockville (black) and the TR 18B-1100 (550W one, gray)

Now the transparence driver i shortened the port to 9cm as it was tuned too low for the driver but other than that the cabs simed are identical. plus the rockville doesn't seem to get any better than what its at now.

I know it completely depends on what the company can offer price wise, but i hope this help.

The RVP18W8 (cheaper one) is gray, the RVW1800P8 is black.

Obviously the design could be optimised but as a comparison the cabs are still 200L, 18cm and 300cm2

The parameters aren't great for vented with QES over .5 on both of them, as you can see with the transparence driver which sims much better.

[/QUOTE] "to be looking at drivers with T/S parms ideally suited for purpose."

What exactly makes a driver ideally suited? I mean as I just clearly pointed out xmax isn't everything when the dayton drivers, while having more xmas, is not as loud as the rockville drivers, with the same wattage given to both, in the same dual 18 bass reflex cab.

So if its not xmax and its a combination of things, how does one find a new driver without test buying every driver? I mean you just told me that those drivers are suited for that, what in the specs shows that? Or is that just parroting speakers you've seen others use without knowing why?[/QUOTE]

when you look at the specs on a driver you can tell what kind of enclosure it would suit. I don't know too much about what parameters to look out for but for vented cabs you want QES to be around .35 and a few other this like EBP but that doesn't matter at the moment.

If you look back to the post with the sim of the rockville and the transparence drivers you can see the rockville peaks around 60hz and drops either side, sharply in the lows, more gently in the highs. Whereas the TR 18B-1100 is pretty much flat.

Its a bit more complicated that this but just to give an idea.