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Feedback issues at loud volume with full bass

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toastyghost View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2017 at 6:03pm
The Luke are nice but they seem tuned above 50Hz so not much use for modern bass and Soundsystems. A vinyl weight helps a lot but they seem to only have favour with the house and techno guys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Racks&Stacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2017 at 6:39pm
I assume they also work for lower frequencies as the design is to isolate using foam. The developer also happens to be a techno dj.

Lower mid frequencies can also feedback. At nyc's twilo, the booth monitors would actually sometimes set off one of the turntables.

Oh, and sympathetic membranes can also cause havoc. I once failed to stiffen up the front wall of a booth enough, thinking that since everything else was brick, I'd be fine. No amount of squash balls or stones would help, but redesigning the wall protecting the gear to tubular steel instead of wood did the trick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2017 at 7:43pm
Unfortunately if the venue is small with a lot of sub and you can't get a decent distance from the subs some feedback seems inevitable with vinyl.
I tried variously hanging the decks from the ceiling via wires and a cradle, with slate in it and then slabs of foam under the decks... still had some sub feedback especially in the quiet bits of the tunes.. Gave up on vinyl in that place in the end!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2017 at 12:15pm
This makes sense.

Originally posted by studio45 studio45 wrote:

The turntable platter can flex radially, ie the edges can move up and down a tiny bit relative to the centre. So when there are strong vibrations in the vertical direction coming from the subs, it vibrates the platter in that mode and exaggerates the vertical movement of the needle. Hence the feedback loop. I'm not sure why that "mono" button helped with feedback, it must have put the subs out of phase with the needle movement somehow.

Sorry but this other statement is completely wrong:

Originally posted by studio45 studio45 wrote:

bass signals are usually cut into the vinyl vertically (because they are the same in both channels, so there is little left to right movement of the needle, just up and down.) 

The vertical modulation of a stereophonic groove on a vinyl record contains the "S" part of a stereo signal, not the "M" = MID / MONO !! 

By default, the vertical modulation can't be as strong as the horizontal modulation, because 1) the groove can't dig very deep 2) the groove shouldn't become too shallow, otherwise the needle jumps out. There is more space available sideways, and the pitch control mechanisms in cutting lathes will adjust accordingly. Look at bass heavy cuts, if you know the tune you can "read" the groove and see where the bass line drops etc. just based on how narrow or wide the groove spacing is. 

Another reason is mono backwards compatibility. When stereo came around, they had to make sure that mono cartridges could play back the stereophonic discs just as well. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote studio45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2017 at 3:35pm
Well, I stand corrected. But that means the mechanism for feedback is a bit of a mystery then. The platter definitely moves vertically, how can that set off a horizontal vibration in the needle? Is it just down to non-ideal tonearm stiffness and bearings?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JAH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2017 at 11:34pm
Is the old wooden Garrard turntable good against this issue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2017 at 11:52pm
Which one?? Garrard made loads to suit many different pockets. Model number?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BJtheDJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2017 at 3:14am
Originally posted by studio45 studio45 wrote:

Well, I stand corrected. But that means the mechanism for feedback is a bit of a mystery then. The platter definitely moves vertically, how can that set off a horizontal vibration in the needle? Is it just down to non-ideal tonearm stiffness and bearings?


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonograph_record 

Sound enhancments > Stereophonic sound :In this system, each of two stereo channels is carried independently by a separate groove wall, each wall face moving at 45 degrees to the plane of the record surface (hence the system's name) in correspondence with the signal level of that channel. By convention, the inner wall carries the left-hand channel and the outer wall carries the right-hand channel.
Rill with sound only on left channel

While the stylus only moves horizontally when reproducing a monophonic disk recording, on stereo records the stylus moves vertically as well as horizontally. During playback, the movement of a single stylus tracking the groove is sensed independently, e.g., by two coils, each mounted diagonally opposite the relevant groove wall.[49]

The combined stylus motion can be represented in terms of the vector sum and difference of the two stereo channels. Vertical stylus motion then carries the L − R difference signal and horizontal stylus motion carries the L + R summed signal, the latter representing the monophonic component of the signal in exactly the same manner as a purely monophonic record.

The advantages of the 45/45 system as compared to alternative systems were:

  • complete compatibility with monophonic playback systems. A monophonic cartridge reproduces the monophonic component of a stereo record instead of only one of its channels. (However, many monophonic styli had such low vertical compliance that they plowed through the vertical modulation, destroying the stereo information. This led to the common recommendation never to use a mono cartridge on a stereo record.) Conversely, a stereo cartridge reproduces the lateral grooves of monophonic recording equally through both channels, rather than one channel;
  • equally balanced reproduction, because each channel has equal fidelity (not the case, e.g., with a higher-fidelity laterally recorded channel and a lower-fidelity vertically recorded channel); and,
  • higher fidelity in general, because the "difference" signal is usually of low amplitude and is thus less affected by the greater intrinsic distortion of hill-and-dale recording.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dub Specialist Sound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2017 at 2:35pm
I have built some of my own plinths for old skool decks ..really simple as we kno

using ply/some birch ply, so tha are very densed and heavy

also what i did it fill all gapes using birchply inside so even heavyier, so little voids as poss, also so it does not hinder any of the mechancs of the deck

hopefully you will get yu deck choice sorted asap..... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2017 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by Dub Specialist Sound Dub Specialist Sound wrote:

I have built some of my own plinths for old skool decks ..really simple as we kno

using ply/some birch ply, so tha are very densed and heavy

also what i did it fill all gapes using birchply inside so even heavyier, so little voids as poss, also so it does not hinder any of the mechancs of the deck

hopefully you will get yu deck choice sorted asap..... 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote studio45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2017 at 5:22pm
I totally get how the stereo groove cutting works now. But, it's making me think that all of what I wrote above must be wrong.
The solutions I mentioned definitely do work in the real world. But if it is down to horizontal deflections of the needle then the mechanism must be different. An up-down movement of the platter would pretty obviously produce a signal out of phase in left vs right, leading to no summed output from the subs; I guess it could be at play if your subs are fed from only one channel.....
I could envisage that the part of the system that's resonating is the tonearm against the needle's left-right compliance, perhaps? But then why would doing things to the platter or feet have any effect - plus, the frequency ought to change with different headshells or addition of weight on top of the headshell?
I have successfully confused myself! Sorry for not being much help!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2017 at 5:33pm
Why does resonance only have to move things in one plane?
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