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Has anyone heard an all valve rig e.g. Axis, S&P?

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valve head777 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 February 2018 at 10:40pm
It was warmth, not distortion that Valve-a-Tron had. And pure depth of bass, not got from modern transistors. Really suited the vintage selection ie Treasure Isle etc. He was running a links pre amp too. The only thing that looked out of place was the 1210 deck. Shame his valves were in box's so difficult to see the valves. Sublime sound. Real dedication. We were running about 3 times the power, but had wrong cabs Embarrassed. one amp was originally Quaker City's. Beautiful sound from that one.

It's hard to put a proper valve system together now, but done right, is worth it, just not recommend!

Go for it OP....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 February 2018 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by colint colint wrote:

Many many years ago I heard Admiral kens sound (Kenny Edwards), I'd gone to his club the bouncing ball in Peckham to try and sell him some HH V800's that he had shown some interest in, he fired the JBL loaded club system up, it was run of a single valve amp, superb awesome sound with very warm bass, couldn't sell him the amps simply because he didn't need them and it wouldn't have improved the sound.
it's still one of the nicest most Hifi systems I've ever heard and apparently only half of what he used on the road. I love the valve sound if just for the warmth. 


Didn't Admiral Ken have Mr Eddy's amps? I think Sheggy knows...?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 February 2018 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by valve head777 valve head777 wrote:

Originally posted by colint colint wrote:

Many many years ago I heard Admiral kens sound (Kenny Edwards), I'd gone to his club the bouncing ball in Peckham to try and sell him some HH V800's that he had shown some interest in, he fired the JBL loaded club system up, it was run of a single valve amp, superb awesome sound with very warm bass, couldn't sell him the amps simply because he didn't need them and it wouldn't have improved the sound.
it's still one of the nicest most Hifi systems I've ever heard and apparently only half of what he used on the road. I love the valve sound if just for the warmth. 


Didn't Admiral Ken have Mr Eddy's amps? I think Sheggy knows...?
Haven't a clue to be honest all I know was he put a record on and it sort of traveled up your legs and took over everything it was a sublime moment and a lesson in audio for me.

Never criticise another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Once you have, call him what you like, you're a mile away and you've got his shoes!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 February 2018 at 11:56pm
Just checked old post, Kumi Hi-fi added that Mr Eddie did build for Admiral Ken. Maybe you heard one of his pieces. Afaik, Mr Eddie was the first man to build heavy weight soundsystem equipment in this country for the wind rush generation. Duke Vin had his equipment built by Mr Eddie.


Edited by valve head777 - 17 February 2018 at 11:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:14am
Well what if my speaker configuration was:
(4) quad bass reflex (house of joy) (wardrobe)'s with JBL 2245H drivers.
(4) double 15 reflex boxes with JBL 2226H drivers.
(4) JBL 2445H 2 inch compression drivers with wooden Markus Klug 1005B horns.
Here is the data sheet for the subs:
I am a total newbie with PA technology and speaker design. I have other threads currently discussing the design of a quad bass reflex box.
If I wasn't intending to play music too loud, just big and full for a nice dance. How would these particular drivers and the number of them (16) affect the option of using valve amplification?
Do the current valve amplified sound systems run mids and tops from valve amps?
With my very limited knowledge I have calculated that if I run (2) drivers on each channel of a stereo amp then the impedance of the speakers is halved from 8 to 4 Ohms and the wattage of the amp at 4 Ohms is halved because the drivers are in parallel with 2 drivers per channel. One crest 9001 per quad.
So a crest 9001 which outputs 2200W at 4 Ohms per channel would be delivering 1100W per JBL 2245H 600W 8 Ohm driver.
The recommendation I have read is to have double the drivers max RMS wattage in amplification wattage to the driver. But forum responders have noted that the JBL 2245H has an xmax of 9.5mm which I believe is less movement than other loudspeakers like PD's, and could be damaged.
But 16 cones and not playing to ear hurting levels might not need huge SPLs.
The idea that the JBL 2245H is not the best driver for my intentions has been raised.
16 subwoofers in a club should be overkill.

I have a friend who has hand made many tube amplifiers. He hand winds transformers and has made bass amps (ampeg 100watt clone), guitar amps, and home stereo amps.
Once I have built one of the quad 18 boxes and one double 15, we will test it with his amps clone and I also have an Ampeg V4 100W tube amp.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:18am
What I think I need to know is a simple logical way to prevent any damage to the speakers. How many reggae sound systems, or other genres for that matter, use limiters.
Wouldn't a limiter be insurance to prevent amp overload and speaker damage. I don't even understand what amp overload is. But apparently it is a danger to drivers.
If the limiter was set to some safe threshold, perhaps it would also serve as a visual reference of when you are sending too much level to the amps. You wouldn't want any limiting on your beautiful dynamic sound anyway. So when you see the limiter meters showing limiting then you could back the level feeding the amps down.
What is the simplest way to keep the speakers and amp safe from too much level?
Thanks,
Roman.


Edited by Roman - 18 February 2018 at 1:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:21am
Hey, this might be a good time to bring up the question.
How much valve amplification would I need for a quad 18 with JBL 2245H speakers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:27am
Originally posted by Roman Roman wrote:

Hey, this might be a good time to bring up the question.
How much valve amplification would I need for a quad 18 with JBL 2245H speakers.


I think 500 Watts per cab would do it. Doesn't sound like much, but as pointed out in other threads, you big cabs reduce power handling of the drivers.
Btw, you are on a very steep learning curve. But don't let that put you off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:44am
Valve head, appropriate name.
Paul Huxtable was marketing a valve amp called the tradition 500. How many watts is that one? 
If an amp is mono, how does that work. Seems like half the channels.
500W to 4 JBL2245H's. My tube amp maker friend thinks 200W is plenty for the quad. But he may not understand reggae sound system needs.
Again, I don't think I need overly loud show off power. But an over spec'ed system probably has it's benefits.
Would a 500W valve amp deliver 125W per driver in a quad 18 bass reflex cabinet?
125W to a 600W driver.
I have read that tube watts are worth about 4 solid state watts. Funny thing to type.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:46am
What compromises would powering the mids and tops with valve amps cause?
Isn't that what other valve sound systems do?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:54am
Originally posted by odc04r odc04r wrote:

A well designed valve amp run within its limits shouldn't sound a lot different to a solid state. There are differences such as reduced output damping and a reliance on output transformers that you can't get away from easily unless you are building some quite exotic OTL design. When you start to crank them up and clip them, things change a bit.

Tbh building a valve amplifier for >100W output per channel the costs in transformers and parts start to become quite high, and its not a linear relationship. Even worse if you want to amplify bass frequencies.
My valve amp maker friend can and does wind his own transformers.
Originally posted by odc04r odc04r wrote:


Unless you want quite a modest system, or are planning to use some very high efficiency drivers, I wouldn't be looking at all valve amplification. I'd build a valve pre-amp instead and run a more conventional system behind it. 
Are JBL 2245H's efficient enough?
I don't want painful sound levels, probably quite modest compared to some sound systems. But big bass is a must. I am hoping 16 subwoofers in 4 quads would give big bass.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 February 2018 at 2:53am
Originally posted by Sheggy Sheggy wrote:

Building up and running an all valve rig is expensive and takes a huge commitment. Paul Axis build his own equipment and can deal with the constant maintenance valve gear can need (especially if it's mobile).
I have a friend who has made many valve amps and hand winds transformers. 
Originally posted by Sheggy Sheggy wrote:


My take on it is this:
valves sound smooth and loud on MT but this is less noticeable on the low end.
You need to decide if it's the valve sound you want or the cachet of running a vintage system.
The sound is so good from well designed and operated valve sounds, like Axis and Jah Observer, that people stop dead in their tracks.
An all valve system better suits a small mobile system.
Run scoops off heavyweight solid-state amps.
Run mid bass, mid and tops off valve, if you can.
Interesting isn't it. Others in this thread have reported the opposite. Valve on subs only.
Originally posted by Sheggy Sheggy wrote:


Use valve pre-amps, and inductors in the signal path to get the valve sound.
Be prepared to spend money and make compromises if you want to go down this route.
Best of luck with this, it's not for weakhearts!
S
Me and the valve amp builder will test my first MDF prototype Quad 18 and double 15 with horns, with his 100W amp clone and my amp V4.
I guess we will evaluate how loud it goes.
Roman.
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