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s2rToe View Drop Down
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Joined: 21 February 2018
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    Posted: 21 February 2018 at 3:50am
Hi. Complete newb here looking for advice. 

I'm looking to build a humble sound system as a mid-life project. Play it out a little bit if it works ... no sound clash ambitions. Mostly for reggae, ska, dub and some soul, funk.

I have been reading and watching stuff to learn terms etc and trawling through the threads here, which are brilliant, but out of my experience mostly.

This is a high level drawing of what I have planned. I'd love feedback on the schoolboy errors I'm making at this level ... (in reply below)

My first specific question then is regards to the tops. I have two bullet tweeters but I also was given an alter 806 A driver and an 811 horn. I think I have found that the driver is only 30W? http://www.yesterdays-tech.com/Altec/802D_806A.pdf. Is that usable in the system? I am guessing I need to power it off a different  amp than the bullet tweeters? ..

Looking forward to getting a steer in the right direction!! Many thanks.





Edited by s2rToe - 21 February 2018 at 4:02am
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s2rToe View Drop Down
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Edited by s2rToe - 21 February 2018 at 3:59am
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Conanski View Drop Down
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Originally posted by s2rToe s2rToe wrote:

My first specific question then is regards to the tops. I have two bullet tweeters but I also was given an alter 806 A driver and an 811 horn. I think I have found that the driver is only 30W? http://www.yesterdays-tech.com/Altec/802D_806A.pdf. Is that usable in the system? I am guessing I need to power it off a different  amp than the bullet tweeters? ..
Not necessarily, you could power these off the same amp by adding a passive crossover for the bullets at 8-10khz.

Other comments I would make concerning you diagram are..

You won't be able to power any of the low and mid drivers to peak ratings so if you can provide the drivers program rating you should be fine.

Running an amp dual parallel into 4ohms/ch is easier on the amp and draws less AC current(less waste heat) than 4ohm bridged which is equivalent to 2ohm/ch, the only catch is you need 4ohm drivers. This config generally sounds better too IMO. I'm thinking about the power for the subs specifically here but I don't think you would need bridged amps for the others either.
 
Traditional sound systems like this always get this part wrong.. all mid/high drivers should be stacked vertically. So if you want/need 2 low/mids they should be stacked and then horn mid/highs should be stacked above that in singles. Never stack multiple horns of the same type so you shouldn't need 2 supertweeters here. If you add more mid/high boxes they should be splayed to minimize overlap in the horizontal pattern.

You can't use more than about 150w with that Altec but it's 16ohm so you need an amp rated for about 300w into 8ohms

I doubt you will need to fully power the 12" low/mid drivers to get balanced sound so you may be able to power these and the horns/bullets from the same 2-ch amp.


Edited by Conanski - 21 February 2018 at 3:43pm
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s2rToe View Drop Down
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Thanks for the reply Conanski, very helpful.

I had some other general advice also t steer me in the right direction, realizing there are so many variables at play  ... 
> Need EQ. 
> Amps look too powerful, (which I think you are also raising)
> Lower watt mids will improve the sound 
> Passive filters to protect the bullets
> Use the Horn for high mids

Some more for me to read up on there Smile

With 2 x 8ohm drivers per box my choices are either to end up with a 4ohm config in parallel or 16 ohm in series - if I understand correctly (this is the newbie section right Embarrassed). 

Do most people wire for 4ohms or is 16ohms better and run a more powerful amp?

Gear wise I have pencilled in the following:

dbx 131s - single channel EQ
dbx 234xs - 4 way mono crossover
Crest CA-6 for mids/tops
Crest CA-9 for subs

Obviously I need to do the math on the amps based on the question above.
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Conanski View Drop Down
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Originally posted by s2rToe s2rToe wrote:

With 2 x 8ohm drivers per box my choices are either to end up with a 4ohm config in parallel or 16 ohm in series - if I understand correctly (this is the newbie section right Embarrassed).
Yes correct


Originally posted by s2rToe s2rToe wrote:

Do most people wire for 4ohms or is 16ohms better and run a more powerful amp?
4 ohms usually.

Originally posted by s2rToe s2rToe wrote:

Gear wise I have pencilled in the following:

dbx 131s - single channel EQ
dbx 234xs - 4 way mono crossover

Buy a DSP processor like the Behringer DCX2496 instead of those two pieces.
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Thanks again. Thumbs Up

Does the following sound like I am on the right track for amps > drivers

Mids: Crest CA6, 400W per channel at 8ohms --> sealed box with 2 x Eminance Delta-12LFA (500W)

Subs: I have 2 Peavey 1808 BWX-SPS drivers that I was given. I was planning on four 18s in two vented boxes, so I may get 2 more of the same as they look affordable.  They are listed at 1000W program. 

If I ran a Crest CA9, 600W per channel at 8ohms --> vented box with 2 x 1808 (1000W) would that work the amp too hard or not get sufficient power from the drivers? 

If the drivers are wired in parallel to make them 4 ohms the amp can run 2000W bridged mono at 4ohms. Is that a better config?

I have some advice about 4ohm being unstable for running precision sound, but I'm not sure what that means exactly?
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CA 12 or 18 would be better( if budget allows).
CA 9 can run 4 ohm bridge but as stated, not recommended especially if you're gonna thrash the amp.

4r bridge (2r stereo) may present difficult loads to some amplifiers and is generally not recommended for heat, longevity reasons.
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When you have bought all you have planned, you will realize, you need 3x times the budget, to get sound you initially desired.

When you hear what that original plan sounds like, you won't be impressed for long.

Would suggest you start off with:

2x 8 ohm Scoops :  Plenty of used Superscooper 18s around (Make sure has at least proper square grill)

Loaded with Fane 18XB 600s
Powered by CA18, Crown Macrotech 5000VZ,  Bridged Crown MA2400, Bridged JBL MPX1200

2x 2x12"+1.4" Midtops
Loaded with Fane 12MB/Eminence Kappa Pro 12 (Budget but decent drivers)
Paudio/FANE 1.4" Comps

Mid tops Powered by Thomann TSA 4-1300

Behringer DCX 2496 Ultradrive or DBMARK DP26 LMS (budget LMS)

Graphic Eq
Bass Pre Amp

** NO PASSIVE CROSSOVERS IN CABS**
** NO ANALOGUE CROSSOVERS IN RACK**

 


Edited by levyte357- - 25 February 2018 at 4:31pm
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.
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Cheers Gents for the patience and advice. I am headed in a much better direction as a result. Some learning curve!

I expected the budget to ratchet up based on every other newbie thread I had read ... but despite that, it happened a lot quicker than I expected  LOL 

I'll be back with more questions soon no doubt Confused
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Originally posted by s2rToe s2rToe wrote:

Cheers Gents for the patience and advice. I am headed in a much better direction as a result. Some learning curve!

I expected the budget to ratchet up based on every other newbie thread I had read ... but despite that, it happened a lot quicker than I expected  LOL 

Hehe..but once you hear it for the first time it makes it all worthwhile.. then you want to build more and think, I wish I had bought decent multi-core speaker cable the first time around (rather than simple twin core...ala dave doubledecks down the pub) Wink
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Originally posted by taurusty taurusty wrote:

CA 12 or 18 would be better( if budget allows).
CA 9 can run 4 ohm bridge but as stated, not recommended especially if you're gonna thrash the amp.

4r bridge (2r stereo) may present difficult loads to some amplifiers and is generally not recommended for heat, longevity reasons.


Crest ca series amps have no problem running at 2ohm per channel or 4 in bridge mode, they were designed to excell in this area.
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Conanski View Drop Down
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Originally posted by s2rToe s2rToe wrote:

Mids: Crest CA6, 400W per channel at 8ohms --> sealed box with 2 x Eminance Delta-12LFA (500W)
For mids I'd recommend the non LF version of these drivers.. the Delta or Kappa Pro 12, more output per watt at the frequencies they will see.

Originally posted by s2rToe s2rToe wrote:

Subs: I have 2 Peavey 1808 BWX-SPS drivers that I was given. I was planning on four 18s in two vented boxes, so I may get 2 more of the same as they look affordable.  They are listed at 1000W program. 

If I ran a Crest CA9, 600W per channel at 8ohms --> vented box with 2 x 1808 (1000W) would that work the amp too hard or not get sufficient power from the drivers?
The amp will be fine and  this is sufficient for these drivers too...they won't handle anywhere near 1000w at sub bass frequencies.

Originally posted by s2rToe s2rToe wrote:

If the drivers are wired in parallel to make them 4 ohms the amp can run 2000W bridged mono at 4ohms. Is that a better config?
NO, the amp would have to be limited to 1/2 of that so it's not worth the bother.

Originally posted by s2rToe s2rToe wrote:

I have some advice about 4ohm being unstable for running precision sound, but I'm not sure what that means exactly?
4ohm bridged yes, but 4ohm per channel no.


Edited by Conanski - 27 February 2018 at 5:27am
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