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Please help select new woofer

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DASHIP View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 February 2018 at 5:14pm
Hello everyone.  I am looking to replace two old woofers (25 years old, voice coils toast) with replacement drivers.  I am hoping the folks on this forum can help me pick the replacement.  I would like to focus on the driver selection, and enclosure options.  Here are my restrictions:
1) This is going to be for home audio listening, in stereo.  I have stereo woofers now, and would like to continue with that configuration (no mono woofer).
2) The woofers are in an actively-crossed-over three-way system (three separate amps), which has a lower cutoff of around 100Hz for the mids.  I would like the woofers to cover 100Hz, down to as low as possible
3) Existing woofer amplifier is an Adcom GFA5802.  I am hoping to drive this at 4-ohms, to gain maximum power to the woofers of around 450W/channel RMS.  Therefore, I have been looking at woofers having dual 2-ohm voice coils that I can run in series at 4-ohms.
4) My spend restriction is currently around $400-ish for both woofers.  I know this is not much for two drivers, but my wallet is smoking from other purchases, so I have to get the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor)
5) I would prefer to re-use my existing enclosures if possible, just to avoid having to build new ones.  They are 17"W x 19"D x 24"H, with a volume of approximately 128 liters, or 4.5 cu. ft., external (probably 15% less given volume reduction due to woofer, etc.).  The enclosures have rectangular ports that are 2" tall, across the entire bottom width of the enclosure (about 16" wide), for a cross-sectional area of 32 square inches.  However, there are two vertical boards within the port that allow blocking one-third, two-thirds, or completely blocking the port, turning the box into a sealed box.  The port length can be extended fairly easily by changing the piece of plywood internally covering the port, up to the depth of the box (19" / 48cm), less room for the air to get in the port (2 - 3"), so maybe 16" max port length.  I am hoping to find a driver that is a good fit for my enclosures, needing only port area and length adjustments.
6) Drivers I have found in my price range are (feel free to suggest others):

- http://www.cadencesound.com/product/bt15d2/  $175  Handles 1,000W RMS, and has a decent efficiency @ 90db/W  Fs around 28Hz (only lists Fo @26Hz)

- https://www.massiveaudio.com/products/gtx154-1400w-dual-4-ohm  $104 w/free shipping ??  LOL it weighs 18 lbs.   Handles 700W RMS, efficiency @ 88db/W  Resonant Frequency Fs=35Hz

- http://soundstream.com/product/r3-15/  $90 w/free shipping (LOL)  Handles 900W RMS, Resonant Freq Fs = 31Hz

- http://poweracoustik.com/product/bamf-152/  $130  Handles a lot of power (1,900W RMS, which isn't needed in this case), but efficiency is low @ 86db/W

- http://poweracoustik.com/product/mofo-152x/ $140  Similar to above, but slightly better efficiency @ 87db/W  Huge magnets, weigh 30 lbs.

- https://www.cerwinvegamobile.com/products/mobile-audio/subwoofers/vega-woofers/v152d  $160  Handles 550W RMS, just enough.  efficiency @ 87db/W, Very low Fs=19Hz, so may be able to hit lower frequencies.

Can you suggest which woofer might be a best fit, and what the port configuration (area and length) should be, given my existing enclosure restrictions?


Edited by DASHIP - 22 February 2018 at 5:18pm
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JonB67 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2018 at 10:50pm
You might like to repost this on diyaudio as they are more heavily home hifi focused.

Good luck!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conanski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2018 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by DASHIP DASHIP wrote:

3) Existing woofer amplifier is an Adcom GFA5802.  I am hoping to drive this at 4-ohms, to gain maximum power to the woofers of around 450W/channel RMS.  Therefore, I have been looking at woofers having dual 2-ohm voice coils that I can run in series at 4-ohms.


Fine.. but you could simply buy a 4ohm sub.


Edited by Conanski - 22 February 2018 at 11:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 February 2018 at 9:53am
Quote 1) This is going to be for home audio listening
Every woofer you've suggested is designed to be used in a car. That's not to say they can't be used as home hifi drivers, but it's not advisable.

Of all the ones you listed, the $175 Cadence driver looks most reliable.

The optimal driver for your requirements (imo) is the Ciare 15.00sw.

Tuned to 30Hz (which is approximately equal to your 16"/32sq" limits) in a 128 litre enclosure gives a -3dB point of 28.8Hz, and your amplifier drives it to it's excursion limits (11.5mm) at 26.5Hz with 450w of input.

It's a little over your budget but it will noticeably outperform any of the drivers you've listed. 

In the UK you can get them for around $265 each equivalent. Lowest US price I've found is $315 though.


The Ciare has a 4" voice coil vs the Cadence 3", it'll be considerably more hifi, and the frequency response is a lot more balanced outside of the actual sub region (50-100Hz ie).

There are probably more suitable drivers designed for hifi use in your price range - two places to start are lautsprechershop.de which has an excellent search tool with full parameter options, and Parts Express has a pretty good range of drivers designed specifically for hifi use as well.

Practically it's extremely unlikely you'll ever be utilising the full capacity of these drivers for home listening use, unless you live in a detached (very detached, like, in the middle of nowhere) house with a large listening room or 'home listening' for you means 'raucaus house party bordering on a rave'.


The red line is the Cadence, blue is the Ciare. The bump in the lower bass may look appealing but if your target is accurate music reproduction, indoors in a home listening environment, it's unlikely to play well with the room gain (although exactly how your subs behave in your listening environment is impossible for us to guess, which makes giving precise advice on a subject like this very difficult).

Looking at the 100Hz crossover region you can see the Cadence driver drops by about 3.5dB, and further up, 4dB. The 100-200Hz region will all be relevant to your sound, because the crossover slope of the sub extends into that region and beyond, and that's where a driver like the Ciare will really shine. Car subs do not play well in that region, and not only due to less output, but also considerably more distortion.

Something to keep in mind is your understanding (or lack of it) on the relative importance of various parameters, combined with the tendency of car audio manufacturers to lie or otherwise blatantly misrepresent their products, makes choosing a woofer into a real minefield. 

Ciare lists the frequency range of the 15.00sw as '20-200Hz', which is already fairly optimistic. Cadence lists their BT15d2 as covering '28-800Hz', but I guarantee the Ciare will sound better above 100Hz.

I'm not sure I've done a great job of explaining exactly why a car audio woofer is a bad choice for hifi. There are so many factors and it can be difficult to put a finger on it without intimate knowledge of the drivers in question.

Of course you can't rule out that some car audio woofers will actually be really well designed, low distortion, linear response in your desired range, and perform well in a home listening environment, but that would be exceptional. Of course they will all have excellent excursion capacity, but your amp isn't powerful enough to utilise more than about 10mm so any more than that is wasted unless you plan to upgrade your amp.

The thing about car audio is it's like fashion, it's like a pair of Nike trainers vs a pair of serious hiking boots or work shoes (there was a good thread recently on this forum about work shoes which although nominally off topic is quite relevant).

Like Nike trainers, they'll be really suited to their intended application (running on perfectly smooth tarmacced inner city areas and running tracks) but will be lacking versus a more tailored alternative or an all-rounder, which might be more expensive and may sacrifice some features at the expense of others, and won't look as flashy in the same price range.

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rss390hf-4-15-reference-hf-subwoofer-4-ohm--295-468

More your price range and may be suitable, but the trouble is the Vas is like three times as high as the car audio stuff or the 15.00sw. You won't be hitting 30Hz with a driver like this in your enclosure unless you EQ up the low end at the cost of SPL, and that may be a legit option to consider tbh.

Enclosure volume is going to be your main bottleneck, because very few hifi grade drivers are designed to be used in very small boxes. The 15.00sw is one of a few. There are others but none I can think of that would be cheaper.


Edited by Hemisphere - 23 February 2018 at 3:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DASHIP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 February 2018 at 3:16pm
Hemisphere, thank you for your very well thought out and beneficial post.  I sincerely appreciate your time.  A bit more information about the nature of my listening: I live in the middle of nowhere, and have what I would consider as a fairly serious stereo audio listening setup that has grown over the years.  My main speakers are Infinity Reference Standard, run in a bi-amp mode.  The mid/hi's are run by a Parasound HCA-3500, while the low's are run by a Carver M4.0t, with the subs powered by the aforementioned Adcom GFA-5802.  The crossover, EQ, time alignment, and other functions are handled by a Dolby DriveRack II.  The power circuits are two separate, 30A, 120V lines, with the Carver on one, the Adcom on the other, and the Parasound split between the two.

I have several friends that are also audiophiles with serious systems, and we take great pleasure in listening to music at each other's houses, partying late into the night, at what often reaches rock concert sound pressure levels.  These escapades are typically timed so that the wife/kids are absent (think guys night - IN).  I guarantee you that we will see the limit of the woofers or amplifier at some point, although granted that it will represent a small amount of my total music listening time.  My "room" is the basement, which is huge.  (The WAF of having this monster system in the living room was low)  It is about 30' x 60', with 9' ceilings.  It is partially finished, and I have tried to add sound absorbing materials where possible.

I like your ideas about other woofer options.  The main reason I was looking at car audio subs is that they are relatively cheap, are available in 4-ohm, and seem to be beefy.  I have had a hard time finding home audio subs with 4-ohm voice coils.  On the other hand, the increased efficiency of the 8-ohm Ciare @ 93db/W would more than make up for the drop in amplifier power.  Most of the car audio subs are made for extreme power, which necessitates heavy cones/surrounds/spiders, which causes lower efficiency.  However, I did not understand some of the negative aspects of the car audio subs you mentioned.

For the Ciare, can you recommend the best port configuration for my enclosure?  (i.e. sealed, vented, or partially-blocked vent, and what port length?)

If you can recommend any other woofers that would be a good fit for my enclosures, especially if you found a 4-ohm driver, that would be great.  I will look at lautsprechershop.de and Parts Express.

Thank you!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2018 at 10:26am
I guess you're limited to 15" or the 12.00sw from Ciare would be even more suitable, cheaper, and available in 4ohms.

The extra sensitivity of the Ciare doesn't translate into gains in sub - look at the graph vs the Cadence. That's watt for watt.

Port? As long and wide as possible! Just remember the port volume doesn't count towards enclosure volume, so the bigger you make the port the smaller the enclosure. I recommend tuning to around 35Hz.

The limits you specified work out to a 30Hz tuning in 128 litres, but due to the volume losses you should probably scale it back a little and you'll land up around 35Hz.

Look for drivers with Vas between 60 and 100 litres. Don't rule out a higher Vas driver if it's 4ohms, high excursion etc, (remembering 10mm is about the practical limit of your amp) but weight your selections in favour of low Vas.

You can sim them using WinISD free software, or if you bring another selection of candidates here I can have a look at them.

To illustrate what I meant about selecting a higher Vas driver and EQ'ing up the low end, the BMS 15s330 is a perfect example - unfortunately yet again not available in 4ohms, but there are plenty of 15" PA sub drivers available in 4ohms which will perform similarly. Look at manufacturers like B&C, Eighteensound, Faital Pro, Beyma, etc. Blue Aran is another good retailer with a wide selection and easy to navigate by driver size and application etc. Not local to you, but a reasonable starting point for research. I'm not so familiar with US manufacturers, but Parts Express has a PA driver section, you could also ask on 'diyaudio' or 'prosoundweb' forums for recommendations of US manufacturer equivalents. 


This shows the Cadence driver (blue), the Ciare 15.00sw (red) and the BMS 15s330 (green), each in a 115 litre enclosure tuned to 35Hz. 

You can see the BMS, (with a Vas of 152 litres, which is pushing the limit but not unacceptable) loses a few Hz of low frequency extension, but once you get above 40Hz (or below 30Hz) it's equal or greater efficiency (meaning it will be a lot less strained in most real world music playback, which all helps the cause of high fidelity playback). To get the low notes in line with the mid and upper bass you would need to EQ it up a little (or EQ the efficiency boost down), but you mention playing in a basement, presumably with thick stone walls/floor/ceiling, so I doubt you're going to be struggling with the low notes in any case.

BMS lists excursion as 8mm but they use a conservative rating system which will equate to more like 11mm by standards of other manufacturers. In the UK the 15s330 go for around $225 each equivalent.



Edited by Hemisphere - 25 February 2018 at 10:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DASHIP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2018 at 4:40pm
Hemisphere, I looked on Parts Express for some suitable woofers, and they had these woofers that looked like they might be a good fit.  What do you think?:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rss390hf-4-15-reference-hf-subwoofer-4-ohm--295-468

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-um15-22-15-ultimax-dvc-subwoofer-2-ohms-per-coil--295-514

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rss390ho-4-15-reference-ho-subwoofer-4-ohm--295-469

How do they compare with the Ciare / Cadence?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2018 at 6:27pm
Dayton RSS390HO looks like the best of the three. All of these are low efficiency but they should sound great. You lose any benefit of 4ohms versus the Ciare which is +3dB across most of the range. You're trading efficiency for bass extension, basically, but as these drivers all have higher Vas the gains are nullified -  the same box size gives approx the same response, just 3dB less efficient.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DASHIP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2018 at 6:34pm
OK, let's say we compare the Ciare VS RSS390HO.  Which seems like the better fit in my enclosures?  Would you recommend the RSS390HO in a sealed or vented configuration?  If vented, what port area/length?

Also, in your last post, you mentioned the graphs were with the enclosure tuned to 35Hz.  Would it be possible to tune it lower, like 25Hz?  What are the advantages / disadvantages?


Edited by DASHIP - 26 February 2018 at 6:43pm
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