Speakerplans.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > General Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - DJ & Sound System volume levellers
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

DJ & Sound System volume levellers

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 10>
Author
Message
RC1 Sound System View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 03 February 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 247
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RC1 Sound System Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2018 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by freddymendez freddymendez wrote:

Isn't that exactly what the AVC2 does?
 
No, I've owned a few AVC2 and am fairly familiar with them.
 
First of all the AVC2 is not very transparent, I've stood in venues running on them and cringed when hearing the AVC2 audibly kick in and out on the gain.
 
Secondly, the AVC2 is basically performing as a leveller to limit the average level, and does not consider the duty cycle of the signal and how that affects the average level.
 
If you have a fairly minimal dance track playing then the percussive instruments have low duty cycles and as such the "average level" is low compared to the actual loudness of the instruments.  On the other hand a more musical track with instruments and vocals has a high duty cycle of almost constant sustained loud signal, therefore its "average level" is very high compared to the loudness of the instruments.
 
So, if you have a device maintaining an average level, like an AVC2 or typical leveller, then the actual loudness of the instruments will be much more on a minimal percussive track than one with vocals for example.
 
As I've witnessed while cringing many times, with an AVC2, and most other levellers, if you are playing a non-melodic dance track through them nice and loud with gain reduction and suddenly a vocal and instruments come in the leveller will audibly reduce the volume right down.  Then when the singer stops the volume will come back up loud again, effectively modulating the volume of the track to the vocals, even when the vocals are not the loudest component of the music.
 
Yes, the AVC2 does provide some levelling to a signal, but it doesn't do it very nicely, and for us trying to provide & engineer top quality sound systems for events its performance is simply unacceptable.
 
If you have a noisy bar somewhere where the music isn't the main show, and you're just trying to put something in place to prevent too much noise upsetting neighbours then nobody will care how musical it sounds and an AVC2 would be perfectly suitable in that application.  That's not what our device is for though.


Edited by RC1 Sound System - 26 April 2018 at 5:11pm
Back to Top
norty303 View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 18 August 2004
Location: Eastbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 8806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norty303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2018 at 6:01pm
I thought that the Drawmer 2120 was much more elegant in this regard compared to the AVC.
Aren't you just looking for an expander to deal with the low level bits, and something like the 2120 to deal with the upper limits?

How are you dealing with the natural light and shade dynamics of music though?
Some passages are deliberately quieter and not something the act/DJ would want 'levelling'.

I found the AVC was horrible when being pushed really hard by the DJ (most attenuation lights lit - every gain and EQ knob on mixer turned to 5 oclock to get more volume out of the ever quieter system...) when you get a breakdown in the music, the lack of bass means the mids and highs suddenly scream at you due to the high gain but lack of real energy, then the bass/kick comes back in and you hear the first note extra loud before it all clamps down really noticeably...
My laser stuff: Frikkin Lasers
Back to Top
RC1 Sound System View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 03 February 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 247
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RC1 Sound System Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2018 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by norty303 norty303 wrote:

I thought that the Drawmer 2120 was much more elegant in this regard compared to the AVC.
Aren't you just looking for an expander to deal with the low level bits, and something like the 2120 to deal with the upper limits?

How are you dealing with the natural light and shade dynamics of music though?
Some passages are deliberately quieter and not something the act/DJ would want 'levelling'.

I found the AVC was horrible when being pushed really hard by the DJ (most attenuation lights lit - every gain and EQ knob on mixer turned to 5 oclock to get more volume out of the ever quieter system...) when you get a breakdown in the music, the lack of bass means the mids and highs suddenly scream at you due to the high gain but lack of real energy, then the bass/kick comes back in and you hear the first note extra loud before it all clamps down really noticeably...
 
I agree, the Drawmer sounds much better than the AVC2.  However, the Drawmer is basically just a slow acting limiter designed to protect the sound system, it is intended to be one of the final processors to come in and limit when the system is being driven too hard.  It is not designed to consider the perceived volume levels and sound from the point of view of the listener's enjoyment.  That's the difference, our device is designed to manage the gain for the benefit of the enjoyment of the listener and the performance of the show, as opposed to a limiter which is there to just reduce gain when it gets too loud.
 
As you point out, a leveller would spoil quite a lot of tracks by trying to level out between the quiet and loud sections, whereas our device (like an engineer) tries not to do that.
 
Our device is not a substitute for system limiters, it is there for a different purpose, more of a substitute for an engineer when the engineer has to be attending to matters elsewhere, and as such is I feel a very unique product.
 
***** - A quick note to your comment about the AVC2 "pumping" the level really badly when the bass kicks in and out - there is an internal jumper in the AVC2 you can set to put an "A weighted" filter into it's sidechain, which reduces the pumping effect and improves it significantly in that regard.  Still not a very nice bit of kit though in my opinion!


Edited by RC1 Sound System - 26 April 2018 at 6:52pm
Back to Top
nickyburnell View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 06 February 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4410
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2018 at 7:28pm
Solution for crappy mp3.

Technics SL1200/1210

Coat on..........
It's everything, not everythink!
Back to Top
Racks&Stacks View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 10 February 2006
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 204
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Racks&Stacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2018 at 9:02pm

brand/model unfortunatly wasnt in my emails, but it was rented through http://www.bll-vt.de/


Edited by Racks&Stacks - 26 April 2018 at 9:02pm
Back to Top
smoore View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc
Avatar

Joined: 30 March 2011
Location: N.Devon
Status: Offline
Points: 937
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2018 at 9:57pm
Would a limiter that is almost exactly the same as a Drawmer but programmed for phons (Loudness) rather than voltage (I think?) work for you? I had a similar idea in mind for a while but not the skill set to approach making one..

Sam
Back to Top
madboffin View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 03 July 2009
Location: Milton Keynes
Status: Offline
Points: 1537
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madboffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2018 at 9:58pm
My old Compellor works nicely in this application. Followed if necessary by the Dominator if you really want to hammer things.
Both picked up fifteen or twenty years ago for about £100 each from people who couldn't work out how to use them...



Edited by madboffin - 26 April 2018 at 9:59pm
Back to Top
RC1 Sound System View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 03 February 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 247
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RC1 Sound System Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2018 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by madboffin madboffin wrote:

My old Compellor works nicely in this application. Followed if necessary by the Dominator if you really want to hammer things.
Both picked up fifteen or twenty years ago for about £100 each from people who couldn't work out how to use them...

 
We've been using the Compellors (320A) at our events for the last few years, I agree it's about the best offering out there at the moment, but it still doesn't quite get it right as it can't understand duty cycle and is often affected by sub bass.  But in the absence of anything better it's great!
Back to Top
RC1 Sound System View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 03 February 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 247
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RC1 Sound System Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2018 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by smoore smoore wrote:

Would a limiter that is almost exactly the same as a Drawmer but programmed for phons (Loudness) rather than voltage (I think?) work for you? I had a similar idea in mind for a while but not the skill set to approach making one..

Sam
 
Not really aiming at being a limiter, more of an alternative to an engineer riding the faders, you would probably still ultimately need limiters in the system as this device has no interest in preventing clipping, it is only interested in the experience of the listener.  Of course it would need to consider loudness not voltage, but as mentioned in above posts needs to consider a lot of other factors as well if it is to perform similarly to a real engineer.
 
That said, if the Drawmer did have a filter in it's sidechain so it triggered on loudness rather than voltage it would improve it for that purpose, but it would still in every other way behave like a conventional limiter/leveller.
Back to Top
Dub Specialist Sound View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 15 November 2013
Location: Smethwick
Status: Offline
Points: 4873
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dub Specialist Sound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2018 at 2:43pm

volume levellers


these normally wort really well
LOL
LOL




Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE...
Back to Top
gen0me View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc
Avatar

Joined: 20 February 2016
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 999
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2018 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

What? No solution for crappy mp3s? That device is doomed from the start.
Originally posted by RC1 Sound System RC1 Sound System wrote:

However, not found a solution to crap MP3s yet though.  High bitrate ones are bearable, but the lower bitrate MP3s ripped off the internet are awful Ouch
There used to be a solution on CDJ1000mk3. With crappy mp3 cdj after 20seconds showed error and stop playing. Althought I think it was like  mp3 industry mechanism. Those mp3s are clearly bad coded. They have multiple 00 bits in their coding(empty bits)

So basicly you need leveler and after limiter. Limiter will work on fast changes until the leveler will lower level as the engineer would under the threshold of a limiter.
I appreciate every like :)) https//www.facebook.com/genomesoundsystems
Mixes: https://www.mixcloud.com/gen-ome/
Back to Top
Earplug View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 03 January 2012
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 7199
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2018 at 3:55pm
LOL
Originally posted by Dub Specialist Sound Dub Specialist Sound wrote:

volume levellers


these normally wort really well
LOL
LOL







+1

LOL LOL LOL Thumbs Up  LOL LOL LOL



Earplugs Are For Wimps!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 10>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.