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DJ & Sound System volume levellers

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colinmono View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinmono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2018 at 7:53pm
I looked for something similar to what you've described a few years ago. I think a device like this could be really useful, although I think will be difficult to match the human ear of the system engineer. It was a good few years ago when I last looked into it, at the time I thought this range of AGC units might be worth a look:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RC1 Sound System Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2018 at 8:38pm
Hi Colinmono,
Thanks for the link, looks interesting.
 
Like you said, whatever you do you can't quite match a human engineer, but you can probably get close enough to be "acceptable" in a lot of applications.
 
Fundamentally the problem is, although our device does listen and adjust the levels in a very similar way to an engineer, I haven't found a way of incorporating any "common sense" into it!  So of course there will be the odd occasion when it doesn't quite get it spot on, but the result on these occasions should still nevertheless remain within the realms of "acceptable".  And on the positive side it doesn't get lazy, so there will be a lot of times when it's paying more attention than an engineer and may therefore occasionally actually do a better job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brokenjoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2018 at 8:51pm
Also pretty sure theres an auto gain feature on the new Midas & Behringer Air series.. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQrVHU0AClc
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gen0me View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2018 at 10:50pm
Problem is more complicated than it looks on first sight.
It looks good. Sounds ~~ok on range 15 maybe 20db
As you said on those long calm moments....
Comes to mind Afrojack Like Mike Nervo - The Way We See The World
May I ask whats the bit deepth RC1?

The meter on right is output.
The meter on left is input.
Middle one was used by me for reference(after compressor)
The output channel is only controled by fader. No compressors or limiters.


Edited by gen0me - 27 April 2018 at 10:56pm
I appreciate every like :)) https//www.facebook.com/genomesoundsystems
Mixes: https://www.mixcloud.com/gen-ome/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RC1 Sound System Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2018 at 9:41am
Hi Gen0me,

Thanks for the reply.

Like you said, it is more complicated than it looks. That is why in the absence of any other product appearing to do an adequate job of it, it’s taken me some time to consider how to achieve a good result.

I looked at the video you posted.  It superficially appears to me to be behaving like a limiter acting on slow time constants.  It appears that the level is modulated more by the bass than the “loudness”, and it reacts too quickly spoiling the dynamic range of the music. As mentioned music has quiet and loud periods, but the system you’re demonstrating would flatten that out and spoil the music. I suspect in fact the quiet bits of a track would actually become the loudest as there would be no bass to modulate the level down! Also, at 53 seconds when you have a brief “whoops” with the level, the gain is pulled so far back so quickly that it drops the level very low and then has to recover.  That would be awful at an event and an engineer wouldn’t do that, he would probably ignore the whoops as a one off and the system limiters would take the pain out of it.

All of this just goes to prove the point you made about it being complicated, and that’s why I feel a totally new type of device is needed to address that.

Regarding bit rate the audio path of our device is 100% analogue, so bit rate isn’t applicable.


Edited by RC1 Sound System - 28 April 2018 at 9:42am
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Pasi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2018 at 9:52am
Old DBX Driverack already had automatic gain control. Nexia has AGC on their DSPs etc. So what you are trying to do is to replicate what AGC + look ahead limiting does, which both already exist in the market.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RC1 Sound System Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2018 at 10:34am
Originally posted by Pasi Pasi wrote:

Old DBX Driverack already had automatic gain control. Nexia has AGC on their DSPs etc. So what you are trying to do is to replicate what AGC + look ahead limiting does, which both already exist in the market.

There are lots of very good AGC units available, I agree.  However, as mentioned in my previous reply to you there is no look ahead limiting in our device, and it performs completely differently to other typical AVCs.  Unlike other AVCs our device is not trying to limit to a threshold, it is trying to ride the gain like a human engineer would for the benefit of the listener’s ears.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sirius Sounds Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2018 at 11:41am
perhaps if it can track the movement of the crossover it might make it easier to identify when its dj's levels that is the problem.
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4D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 4D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2018 at 11:49am
Reminds me of the nineties, long nights of hard trance back when I used to be really keen hovering over the gain & eq for every beat of a eight hour show, sensing exactly when the DJ would have a wee surge whilst dropping in the next track. Eye to eye contact dj,  engineer and crowd all grinning wildly keeping the vibe at the optimum.

Then came hard house and nosebleed kicks.  

Kind of lost heart after a couple of years and went for the sp2120




Edited by 4D - 28 April 2018 at 2:21pm
DMZ. "The bass was intense. Girls were literally running up to stand next to the subs"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I-shen Soundboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2018 at 12:44pm
Or screw a strip.of metal across the 0db level of both the graphic and volume faders on the DJ mixer.  Seen a few of them...
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Pasi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2018 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by RC1 Sound System RC1 Sound System wrote:

Originally posted by Pasi Pasi wrote:

Old DBX Driverack already had automatic gain control. Nexia has AGC on their DSPs etc. So what you are trying to do is to replicate what AGC + look ahead limiting does, which both already exist in the market.

There are lots of very good AGC units available, I agree.  However, as mentioned in my previous reply to you there is no look ahead limiting in our device, and it performs completely differently to other typical AVCs.  Unlike other AVCs our device is not trying to limit to a threshold, it is trying to ride the gain like a human engineer would for the benefit of the listener’s ears.


My point in simple english: You are trying to do something what already exists in the market. I've never said anything about your unit, i've said what is already available which does the job what you want your thing to do.

AGC is Automatic Gain Control which does exactly what you want it to do when it is below the threshold and combined with look ahead limiting, it would also do the other side, too hot signal, as well. So when using those 2 together, there is 0 need for the unit what you are working at.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2018 at 2:28pm
Pasi, where is this relatively inexpensive 1u product that you speak of ?  Because  this is what Rc1 are building, if as you say it already exists then can you post a link to it please.
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