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DJ & Sound System volume levellers

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spongebob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 5:19pm
It's got kill switches on it!

Market it to the Reggae boys for £1000 a go and you'll sell hundreds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dylan-penguinmedia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 5:36pm
Fair play to you for trying it out - like you say if it doesn’t work, it’s not the end of the world and you may well learn some things along the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SamV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 12:45am
Jon mate, good on you, one thing tho, it needs moar lights!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 2:27pm
I’m not sure how I’m misunderstanding what it does differently to any other ‘fader rider’ type AGC - unless you’ve pegged it to ELC curve at the phon level (but that requires a mic? And not sure how that would be done in pure analogue) but I’d be happy to give one a try, even in an A-B situation with the others. Pretty sure there’s an AVC2 somewhere in the warehouse, plenty of SP2120 and I’ve got a Dateq en route soon.

Edited by toastyghost - 08 May 2018 at 2:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 3:55pm
I have to say I've read the whole thread and I am also struggling to see how this is fundamentally different from any compander system. The only difference I can see it that people may be talking around is that vs a compander vs a true auto gain system. The difference being that a compressor/limiter actively alters the signal when it senses that a peak will exceed the threshold which can provide compression of some frequencies vs others (usually low vs high) while an autogain unit modifies the amplitude of the entire signal such that the dynamic range between different frequency bands is preserved and the whole signal does not change, with exception of amplitude.

If I had to throw a guess I am going to assume that the proposed system is of the latter variety, and the auto gain action is probably only going to be triggered by the amplitude of a filtered portion of the signal, likely bass as it tends to come with the largest amplitudes in electronic music.

If you set up the attack and delay times of such a system correctly it could sound quite transparent with pre-recorded electronic music and avoid the main problem with equipment such as the AVC - namely that if it is heavily limiting with high amplitude low frequencies present then the track breakdowns which are usually mid+ only can become extremely loud in comparison when allowed to expand.

Edit: But don't forget your proper outboard compressors for those excitable MCs






Edited by odc04r - 08 May 2018 at 3:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RC1 Sound System Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 7:55pm

What's the difference between our device and other limiters/levellers/auto gain controls?

Let me give a few examples - so, you're enjoying the music at a dance music event and:-

·         There is a quiet section in the track.  The music ramps up louder and louder until the section that's supposed to be quiet and chilled is really loud.  Then the beat and bass drops in again, but too loud, and then audibly pulls back down to the level it was at before the section that should have been "quiet".  That sounded awful, but that's typical of many limiter/leveller/agc units.  They should have used a real engineer (or our device) instead, and then the gain would have remained fairly constant and the music would have come out nicely, without compromise to its dynamic range, just as the artist intended it to.

·         A couple of loud samples or shouts go out from the DJ, or an MC, and the level of the music suddenly drops, then gradually comes back up again.  That sounded awful, why would you want the music to go quiet and then loud again just because of a slightly louder sample or voice?  That's just what a typical limiter/leveller/agc would do, but a real engineer (or our device) would have ignored the louder burst and let it pass so the music would have remained uncompromised.  Of course, if the sample was coming out far too loud then an engineer would have jumped into action with an "emergency response", but then so would the our device just the same.

·         There's a great track playing now and suddenly the most incredible heavy sub bass line drops in, following which the level fades down.  Why would you want the music and vocals to go quieter just because of the bass line coming in?  Then the bass line stops and the music and vocals fade up louder again.  That sounded awful, why would you want it to do that?  That's just what many typical limiter/leveller/agc units would do, but a real engineer (or our device) would have ignored the sub bass provided it was within reasonable proportion to the rest of the music and left the level of the track unchanged.

·         The DJ just dropped such a great track that the crowd roar, so he "winds it back".  After 5 or 10 seconds of apprehension  he cues it up to play again, but this time it starts off unpleasantly and ridiculously loud, but then quickly fades back to the normal level again.   That sounded awful, why would you want it to do that?  That's just what a typical limiter/leveller/agc would do, but a real engineer or our device would hold the gain steady in anticipation of the forthcoming signal at a similar level again.

·         Some tracks are very musical and some are more just percussive sounds.  Strangely the musical tracks seem to come out at a softer level, why is that?  Equally when the vocal line comes in on a track the hi hats and snare go a bit quieter.  That sounds awful, why is that, surely the idea is that all tracks should sound a similar level and gain should remain fairly steady throughout a track?  It is probably because a typical leveller/agc unit can't understand the effects of duty cycle.  The unit tries to hold a consistent average level, but the higher duty cycle of the musical tracks means that they get unfairly prejudiced against on average levels.  It works the other way round too, at events when most of the musical content of a track has stopped but the high hats are still going I've seen levellers ease right off so the top amps are almost clipping with high hat and the crowd is looking a little pained.  Of course if you used a real engineer or our device then this wouldn't be a problem as they would be looking to keep the audible level consistent and of course they wouldn't be fading the level up and down just because the odd instrument or vocal dropped in or out.

An engineer doesn't want to spoil or interfere with the dynamic range of the music, they are just trying to keep the average level at the event sounding fairly consistent and at a level that everyone can enjoy, which typically involves just tweaking the fader up and down a little when necessary.

That is exactly what our device does.  The louder bits of a track will be louder, the quieter bits quieter, but overall the average level will sound consistent throughout the event.

For many years I've been frustrated that I couldn't find a device that I could use that would analyse and maintain the levels like this, so eventually I decided if nobody else can offer me one I'd make it myself.  So that's what I did.  Just have to try it at a few shows now and check it performs as well as hoped.

It is not a substitute for a limiter on the system, it won't prevent anything from clipping and limiters for that purpose are still as important as ever.  But it will keep the show running at audibly perfect levels all night long without any compromise to the dynamic range of the content.  Or that's the theory anyway.......

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 8:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AJ113 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by RC1 Sound System RC1 Sound System wrote:

...The louder bits of a track will be louder, the quieter bits quieter, but overall the average level will sound consistent throughout the event...
As I said, that is loudness normalisation. MP3gain will do exactly what you are looking for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RC1 Sound System Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by AJ113 AJ113 wrote:

Originally posted by RC1 Sound System RC1 Sound System wrote:

...The louder bits of a track will be louder, the quieter bits quieter, but overall the average level will sound consistent throughout the event...
As I said, that is loudness normalisation. MP3gain will do exactly what you are looking for.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t mp3gain cheat a bit by analysing an entire “known” track then retrospectively adjusting the track’s overall gain? Surely that couldn’t work in “real time” in a live environment with unknown dubplates, mixes and MCs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AJ113 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by RC1 Sound System RC1 Sound System wrote:

...Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t mp3gain cheat a bit by analysing an entire “known” track then retrospectively adjusting the track’s overall gain? Surely that couldn’t work in “real time” in a live environment with unknown dubplates, mixes and MCs?
I'm not fully sure what you mean. It analyses each file to measure the integrated loudness, then adjusts the loudness to a user-defined level. Hence all tracks are played at the same loudness.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by RC1 Sound System RC1 Sound System wrote:

Of course, if the sample was coming out far too loud then an engineer would have jumped into action with an "emergency response", but then so would the our device just the same.
This is a job for limiter with threshold that works above the leveler threshold.
Originally posted by RC1 Sound System RC1 Sound System wrote:

Some tracks are very musical and some are more just percussive sounds. Strangely the musical tracks seem to come out at a softer level, why is that?
No idea why. But also suprisingly on large soundsystems very shitty sounding tracks on home audio like for example Prodigy sound nice and good sounding on home audio tracks sound too fatiguing for ears due to compression. Moreover some tracks percived loudness is like ~6db quieter than another but both are mastered to 0dbOuch Try to fight thatBig smileAlthough this one may be exaggerated due to shitty mp3s
Originally posted by RC1 Sound System RC1 Sound System wrote:

Equally when the vocal line comes in on a track the hi hats and snare go a bit quieter. 
 
It happens on the production level during mastering. Basicly when compression is applied the sounds appear to be more quieter. So the only way to make them appear similarly loud is to put faders up of some vocals and hats when the bass is coming in. But that has to be done in chain before compressor on production level. And moreover the mastering party has to have the hole project with seperate tracks for instruments. That is getting obviously less often on current market.


Edited by gen0me - 08 May 2018 at 11:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RC1 Sound System Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2018 at 11:52pm
Hi Gen0me,
From this, and your previous posts, it seems that you appreciate what I'm trying to achieve is not simple and requires a new approach.  As mentioned before that is why I felt it necessary to start from scratch and design a new kind of device.
 
Our device will cope very well with the scenarios you mention there, and as you recognised in your second point other limiters, etc, simply won't get the right result.
 
As you say, some tracks are perceived perhaps 6db quieter than others when they're all mastered to 0db, so most devices that limit/level according to mastered db would not maintain a consistent perceived volume, which at an event isn't very good at all.  That's one reason why a device like ours that is only interested in perceived volume, rather than any other criteria, is so different to other devices as it can therefore maintain perceived volume regardless of how the tracks are recorded or mastered.
 
It performs flawlessly "on the bench", so I'm looking forward to taking it to a few events to try it out for real.  Planning to take it to one of the events we're doing this coming Saturday night, give it a chance to engineer a real d&b event and see what happens!
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