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Amp limiters... why cant i...?

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JonB67 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2018 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Im wondering why people calculate their limiter settings.  

Im not particularly electronics or amp savvy. (Guess i wouldn't need to ask if i was)

Why can't you just unplug the speakers and measure the voltage with the amp set to 11 and dial the limiters down until its acceptable?

Its clearly not this simple as i can't find anyone suggesting this. What am i missing? 

The only thing that was not mentioned by the previous comments is... What exactly are you protecting? 

The majority of modern day amplifiers offer an on board limiter to prevent severe clipping. Most sound man use stand alone limiters to protect their loudspeakers from receiving too much power providing, the on board limiter in the amplifier is not adjustable. 

So are you protecting your loudspeakers from too much power or, are you using an amplifier that does not include an on board limiter in which, you need to use a stand alone limiter to prevent the amplifier from clipping?


Best Regards,  


Now that's a useful question. 

I've got a matrix 6004 which will give some useful clip protection,  and two numark dimension 4s which probably won't. I have a dcx and Im not  investing in new kit but want to make sure I'm making the most protection from what i already have. 

Primarily looking to not burn out my drivers by feeding them  more than they can handle.


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imageoven View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote imageoven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2018 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

have you googled fluke?
If that was at me then I am well aware of fluke. The point I was trying to make was that analog meters are commonly manufactured and available in a range of accuracy levels.
Sorry for going off topic..
Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2018 at 11:21pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

You think, or it is? Show me facts not guesswork.

Well, I'd figure DMMs mass-produced today can vary greatly in their accuracy (edit : I've had 2, the other fried though).. if a manufacturer released an analog meter (considered vintage these days) it'd probably be of very high quality, and accurate.

What the are you talking about? "Id Figure" isnt facts. Backing it up with the 2 rubbish ones you bought isnt either. 

I've asked you twice to back up your conjecture with facts or maths.

Both times you respond with flannel. Either back it up or stop posting in this thread.  You're not helping and im asking for help. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2018 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by imageoven imageoven wrote:

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

have you googled fluke?
If that was at me then I am well aware of fluke. The point I was trying to make was that analog meters are commonly manufactured and available in a range of accuracy levels.
Sorry for going off topic..
Not at you at all imageoven. Apologies for the crossed wires
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2018 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

have you googled fluke?

I've used a Fluke IR thermometer to take readings from freezers.

The only analog multimeter I found online by a quick search was by Axiomet, and it was around 70e. A normal DMM costs about 20e (I had a Velleman earlier, now I have a Uni-T)

What the had an ir thermometer got to do with anything

And you haven't said *why* a dmm wont do and wtf are you babbling on about analog for?

Admin... ffs. This joker is ruining this forum. It was a simple question,  detailed 3/4 posts in. Unbelievable.

Thanks to those that actually helped. Ill pm you directly for more nfo if you don't mind as i can't bear doing it on here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2018 at 11:46pm
No, i didn't.  I asked a specific question about using measuring voltage to set limiters, which if you had read it you would know.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dylan-penguinmedia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2018 at 12:51am
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

have you googled fluke?

I've used a Fluke IR thermometer to take readings from freezers.

The only analog multimeter I found online by a quick search was by Axiomet, and it was around 70e. A normal DMM costs about 20e (I had a Velleman earlier, now I have a Uni-T)

Jesus... put the keyboard down and have a word with yourself.

There’s good and expensive, as well as cheap and less good multimeters in both analogue and digital flavours. ‘A normal DMM costs 20e’ is another of your bollocks comments which means nothing to anyone. 

This is the problem with the internet. Someone crops up and says something with enough conviction, it becomes ‘fact’.
Someone else will read your comments and think it’s correct. Not just on about this post, but a few I’ve seen you comment on.

If you don’t know, say so. There are people that DO know, leave the answering to them.

/lesson


Edited by dylan-penguinmedia - 29 December 2018 at 12:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2018 at 6:38am
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2018 at 8:18am
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Im wondering why people calculate their limiter settings.  

Im not particularly electronics or amp savvy. (Guess i wouldn't need to ask if i was)

Why can't you just unplug the speakers and measure the voltage with the amp set to 11 and dial the limiters down until its acceptable?

Its clearly not this simple as i can't find anyone suggesting this. What am i missing? 

The only thing that was not mentioned by the previous comments is... What exactly are you protecting? 

The majority of modern day amplifiers offer an on board limiter to prevent severe clipping. Most sound man use stand alone limiters to protect their loudspeakers from receiving too much power providing, the on board limiter in the amplifier is not adjustable. 

So are you protecting your loudspeakers from too much power or, are you using an amplifier that does not include an on board limiter in which, you need to use a stand alone limiter to prevent the amplifier from clipping?


Best Regards,  


Now that's a useful question. 

I've got a matrix 6004 which will give some useful clip protection,  and two numark dimension 4s which probably won't. I have a dcx and Im not  investing in new kit but want to make sure I'm making the most protection from what i already have. 

Primarily looking to not burn out my drivers by feeding them  more than they can handle.




Since you are aiming for loudspeaker protection, each amplifier should be limited differently according to the loudspeaker it is driving. Your Behringer DCX is more than enough to get the job done.

 

Your biggest challenge will be converting the output volts from the amplifier into watts to reflect the rating of your loudspeakers under their nominal load.

 

 

High frequency drivers are always an easy load to an amplifier whereas, mid to low frequency drivers can/will put a heavier load on the amplifier at times.  So even though you could get away calibrating the amplifiers with no load, you will need to limit the voltage possibly 2 – 3 volts more than the outcome to prevent any fluctuations of the loudspeaker load.

 

Your Fluke meter is all you need and some means of noise (White or Pink) as noise reflects more to wards dynamic music material than sine waves. If you have difficulty converting the wattage (Program Power) of your speakers into volts at the nominal load, post the numbers here as I designed such a calculator to execute such a fete when I bench test amplifiers.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Father-Francis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2018 at 9:06am
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

No, i didn't.  I asked a specific question about using measuring voltage to set limiters, which if you had read it you would know.

A limiter is a compressor with a ratio of 10:1 or more (I've heard audio engineers fight over this constantly)

You have an incoming signal of 5V which the limiter, set to 3V threshold will attenuate it to 3.2V because the voltage exceeding the threshold is 2V, and output is 2V/10 = 0,2 so that's 1,8V attenuation.

So the output from a 5V signal would be 3V + 0.2V = 3,2V.

But it's only in theory. In practice with program material (not many people listen to 5VDC) you'd get all sorts of stuff like upward compression, PSU ripple voltages, fluctuations etc.. analog compressors with MOSFETs/JFETs or tubes will surely add all kinds of flavours to the signal, and the built-in ones in amps are usually fixed, fire-and-forget types.
Quarantining is good for you , it’s gets you asking more than answering 🙀🤐

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JonB67 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2018 at 10:07am
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

No, i didn't.  I asked a specific question about using measuring voltage to set limiters, which if you had read it you would know.

A limiter is a compressor with a ratio of 10:1 or more (I've heard audio engineers fight over this constantly)

You have an incoming signal of 5V which the limiter, set to 3V threshold will attenuate it to 3.2V because the voltage exceeding the threshold is 2V, and output is 2V/10 = 0,2 so that's 1,8V attenuation.

So the output from a 5V signal would be 3V + 0.2V = 3,2V.

But it's only in theory. In practice with program material (not many people listen to 5VDC) you'd get all sorts of stuff like upward compression, PSU ripple voltages, fluctuations etc.. analog compressors with MOSFETs/JFETs or tubes will surely add all kinds of flavours to the signal, and the built-in ones in amps are usually fixed, fire-and-forget types.

Again, you make a statement as fact and back it up with spurious anecdote to make it sound valid. (The bit in brackets)

Then you give me something which isn't about using a multimeter to set limiters, but about how much a limiter might attenuate, which if im setting from a measurement at the speaker end, matters not. Would only matter what the end reading was.  

Then you end with the usual fluff and meaningless nonsense we associate with your posts.  

None of it was helpful. Im sure you mean well but this has to stop.  It  confuses, dilutes and derails threads,  and people post because they need help not a bs diatribe based on whimsy and assumption about a vaguely associated thing.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2018 at 10:10am
What i was hoping for it my guess was right, was to come up with a thread people can use as reference so they can grab their multimeter once the driver is warmed up, knock up as patch lead (if they want,  i think it makes sense) they can plug in between the cable and the cab, set limiters to max, read the voltage and reduce the limiter until its reading what they need.  

 If its viable it seems a simple solution compared to the reams and reams and hundreds of confused posts on this forum and others on calculating it. 

Im sure this method has issues, but if it works its got to be easier!

I'll have a play and post my results. 
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