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12 line array cab plan

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mini-mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 1:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conanski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 4:03am
Even better...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 7:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 9:29am
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Even better...




Didn't Nexo do some hardware and presets for doing that with PS15s!?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 9:41am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


Typically on a ‘proper’ system you break the hang into three or more clusters, aiming at specific parts of the audience, and sharing inter-box angles. You can then measure each ‘cluster’ and treat it as one box. 
What about those lobes?
Or do they disappear on longer arrays?

PS. Here are conditions from 4*8 I used for impulse response:
Black dots are the listeners. Not every listener is on the chart. On picture above distance between 1 dot is 1m. Z is distance on the chart.


Edited by gen0me - 11 January 2019 at 10:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 10:37am
I think this discussion is quite refreshing, for years "Line Array" has been fashionable, and therefore deployed - as much for the potential for cheaper rigger/rigging costs, but also claimed "magical acoustic benefits" by manufacturers! Most of the acoustical benefits are tenuous at best, if they ever existed at all, and it is finally being called out. Certainly on short line lengths, it was bolloxs.

However, whether you have Vdosc deployed, or something naff deployed really as best it can be, you can see that LA is not the magic bullet it is sold as.

My own choice was mostly down to flexibility, multipurposeness/convenience of box, and sound quality was down the list - I am not proud or recommend it, but just being honest. It was also a silly price! I reckon with some feckin' about I can get a "good enough" sound so that the average punter is happy, but by cutting back on labour/transport costs, I can keep promoter/client happy as well.

A point source set-up would probably sounded better, Martin H3T+ over 218+, or equivalent, but I would always need a second pair of hands for lifting and shifting, which, at my runt end of the market, budget does not always allow for.

In short, I get paid. I'm a whore, but truthfully, who isn't? We all have bills to pay, mouths to feed, and at some point I wouldn't mind a nice holiday, or a new(er) car...

However, as Toasty as eluded to, even he is effectively using LA as clusters/arrays of point sources!

Does this mean - are you ready for this - Ol' Golden Ears Andrews was right all along!

*Retires from lit touch paper, and hides in bunker*
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 11:13am
gen0me: those lobes are in the domain of the waveguide and where it loses pattern control (900Hz to 8KHz) so the angle will change based on line length and curvature, but they will always be present. The resolution is not fine enough to see but there are many more cancellations in between boxes, at various distances and positions. This is why you get the ‘swishy’ sound.

Honestly play for yourself, EASE Focus 3 is free and so are the data files. It’s super easy to use and you can compare to many many boxes, TW Audio, DAS, even Void use it.

The bigger guys have software that doesn’t do explicit side views (Sound Vision) or uses coarse resolution of 1m blocks (ArrayCalc) só you’ll never see it there... MAPP XT does however, and well, look at how bad the HF waveguide was in some of the pre LYON arrays from Meyer. MINA is a shotgun above 10k!

Matt: not just me pal, this approach is taken from the full four day Meyer course, Merlijn van Veen’s courses, the documentation for MLA and Anya, same for ArrayProcessing by d&b, and one of AFMG FIRmaker’s target goals (albeit better explained by the K Array documentation).

Also, I totally get it. Our most profitable and most busy boxes are by far YAMAHA actives. Second to that is the SM80, which is a 12” coaxial on a massive bowl.

The more ‘real’ line arrays out there are the stupidly huge columns from JBL, K Array and Renkus Heinz, but those are focused on beam steering and are also very expensive. The RH sounds lovely to my ears but it’s so much cash!

And on that note, have a read of this, download the PDF and listen to the embedded recordings within it of column speakers in a church:
https://www.prosoundtraining.com/2015/07/31/tectonic-loudspeakers-at-techny-towers/

Use good headphones. There are three or two front runners to my ears, and one of them isn’t a line array, and costs about a third of the others.

Edited by toastyghost - 11 January 2019 at 11:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Racks&Stacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 11:48am
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

I think this discussion is quite refreshing, for years "Line Array" has been fashionable, and therefore deployed - as much for the potential for cheaper rigger/rigging costs, but also claimed "magical acoustic benefits" by manufacturers! Most of the acoustical benefits are tenuous at best, if they ever existed at all, and it is finally being called out. Certainly on short line lengths, it was bolloxs.

Does this mean - are you ready for this - Ol' Golden Ears Andrews was right all along!

Something to consider is that since most manufacturers dropped everything to try to compete with the fancy vdosc boxes which quickly changed the market, line array modules were the ones benefiting most from any wave guide and driver improvements. Also, since dsp got better and cheaper, it was easier to develop improvements to basic line theory designs (as long as the driver spacing reasonably played by the rules), than tinker with less forgiving horns.

Given that tony built his own line array, it is less an issue to me whether he was right or wrong as to whether his previous designs were good enough to cut through the competitive market. I mean, the resolution horn design is essentially a tweak on the flash/flood stuff. If those weren't going to take over the world, painting the box a different color wasn't going to, either. I've never critically listened to his speakers in large arrays. Do they actually behave much better than the tech he kept patting himself on the back for not using? What makes a res or evo box better in clusters than a kf650 or w8c, given similar dispersion and array building style?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norty303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by MattS MattS wrote:

Didn't Nexo do some hardware and presets for doing that with PS15s!?!


Wasn't that with a top cab inverted on top, rather than landscape arrayed?
The Nexo at least has the rotatable asymmetric horn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by norty303 norty303 wrote:

Originally posted by MattS MattS wrote:

Didn't Nexo do some hardware and presets for doing that with PS15s!?!


Wasn't that with a top cab inverted on top, rather than landscape arrayed?
The Nexo at least has the rotatable asymmetric horn.


Actually I'm struggling to find it, so I may be efin' up.

I know I did hear one, at a cabaret venue of a hotel in Punta Cana, Dominican Republic, 4 PS15 a side, landscape, flown "Arrayed" with what looked like "proper" rigging. On my return from holiday, looked it up and found it, but now can find no reference to it, apart from on Alibaba....

Ignore me, having one of those days...already. I can still taste the toothpaste FFS.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

I think this discussion is quite refreshing, for years "Line Array" has been fashionable, and therefore deployed - as much for the potential for cheaper rigger/rigging costs, but also claimed "magical acoustic benefits" by manufacturers! Most of the acoustical benefits are tenuous at best, if they ever existed at all, and it is finally being called out. Certainly on short line lengths, it was bolloxs.

Does this mean - are you ready for this - Ol' Golden Ears Andrews was right all along!



Something to consider is that since most manufacturers dropped everything to try to compete with the fancy vdosc boxes which quickly changed the market, line array modules were the ones benefiting most from any wave guide and driver improvements. Also, since dsp got better and cheaper, it was easier to develop improvements to basic line theory designs (as long as the driver spacing reasonably played by the rules), than tinker with less forgiving horns.

Given that tony built his own line array, it is less an issue to me whether he was right or wrong as to whether his previous designs were good enough to cut through the competitive market. I mean, the resolution horn design is essentially a tweak on the flash/flood stuff. If those weren't going to take over the world, painting the box a different color wasn't going to, either. I've never critically listened to his speakers in large arrays. Do they actually behave much better than the tech he kept patting himself on the back for not using? What makes a res or evo box better in clusters than a kf650 or w8c, given similar dispersion and array building style?


Actually the VERO is far from a line array nor tries to be one. It is a wide point source box, that happens to hang vertically. It’s essentially two EVO mid axeheads flanking a vertical stack of two or three ‘standard’ HF horns, depending on whether you’re talking about the 60 degree wide or the 90 degree wide box.

They call it ‘geometric energy summation’ but that seems to be branding for shoving an axe head like fin between each horn’s exit as you move down the row vertically.

They also insert the triple 15” kick section every so many boxes to break up the hang.

Unfortunately there is no public data for the boxes, so I can’t verify how much comb filtering there is, but given Tony’s other designs in the past, I would wager it has a bunch because he seems to think it’s relatively unimportant and in fact, the EVO measurements in Peoduction Partner indicate that it’s part of the design to smooth out the dispersion when you use two or three boxes. You can see that on the isobars where the horns narrow in coverage as they move down in frequency.

That said, out of the box they do sound very nice on the mid and high. The lows, not so much. I’ve never been a huge fan of BPH and don’t think I ever will be.

The boxes are not magic still, and benefit from similar treatment and measurement as any other. The best EVO deployments I’ve heard used allpass and more even in a smaller pineapple. VERO I’ve heard three times and each was hit and miss from set to set but it was early days.

Again, this is a step in the right direction to me and I think it could be great - I would love to deploy it myself sometime to find out. But I still would rather use a better point source, a true point source in fact, and maybe 3 or 4 in a hang in total. Fewer sources, fewer interference problems. Better behaved sources, with pattern control across their ENTIRE passband, not just a tiny fragment, and fewer problems again...

The real world needs multiple boxes. I don’t deny that. But it shouldn’t need as many as you have to hang in a typical good line array deployment, and it should need less work, and sound better. It’s been over 20 years, and VDOSC launched around 20 years from the start of ‘real’ tours with various point source boxes.

The funny part is the big guys sort of know this, and they have their own projects on the go from what I’ve been told. But they don’t want to cannibalise the huge sales of 64+ boxes at once they currently have, and nor do the driver manufacturers - just think how much B&C’s pockets grow every time d&b sell a GSL or KSL rig, with its minimum box count and buy in! Hell, the d&b V7p and V10p is about as close to a Synergy style design as you can get without actually making one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

But they don’t want to cannibalise the huge sales of 64+ boxes at once they currently have, and nor do the driver manufacturers...[/IMG]

We are all just trying to make a living! And shareholders aren't content with same profit as last year, they want a growth in profit...

But, to misquote one of Mr Andrews goto quotes, one of the most fundamental problems with making sound waves is the fecking transducers. He will readily tell you that a 20% efficient driver would kill you!

His anecdote glosses over the fundamental problem. Waggling bits of cardboard at, what is after all quite stiff and massy but yet slippery and wafty, air, is bloody stupid, and leads to huge inefficiencies.

We go to all this effort to get these sodding bits of paper to "couple" to the air column in front of it, by all manor of esoteric means, and have to have so many different devices to do 10 octaves, as any one solution is only really good for 2-3 octaves max, causing negative interactions with the octaves above and below. To quote BFM:

Quote ClusterF*ck


If we could find some better way of creating sound waves, more efficiently, and do it from a single transducer from say 40Hz to 18KHz, most other issues go away!

Answers on a postcard...
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