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12 line array cab plan

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toastyghost View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 4:20pm
You know there’s a box design that when complete, measures as a single source of sound or essentially as a single driver, in that passband you ask for, and can pretty accurately produce a square wave, yeah?


And the growth thing is true, which is why d&b, who are arguably the biggest supplier in the world, have been changed ‘ownership’ from investment bank to investment bank multiple times in the past 5 years. It isn’t sustainable to think people will keep buying million quid plus systems every two to three years, and the quality of sound suffers as a result. I don’t doubt there’s sonically better tech sitting there, languishing in R&D on a back shelf because it doesn’t make business sense.

Most importantly though, Slippery and Wafty is an excellent name for a double act.

Edited by toastyghost - 11 January 2019 at 4:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 4:47am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


Actually the VERO is far from a line array nor tries to be one. It is a wide point source box, that happens to hang vertically. It’s essentially two EVO mid axeheads flanking a vertical stack of two or three ‘standard’ HF horns, depending on whether you’re talking about the 60 degree wide or the 90 degree wide box.
 

From my sims so far looks like using multiple drivers in one horn will help sort some of the problems. For example look at any single driver mid horn. A lot of them suffers around 1-2khz from narrowed dispersion(efficiency). If you try to make wide dispersion horn this will be more prominent. Its also obviously solution to pattern flip. And it would allow for better expansion profiles. They ofc cant use them vertically for a pattern flip thing but at this frequencies the stack would really have to be long for those lobes as in sims from previous pages. To be fair im not sure if those lobes would even work this way as horns may not allow wave to spread like this.


Edited by gen0me - 12 January 2019 at 5:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 10:24am
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

...multiple drivers in one horn...

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

...there’s a box design that when complete, measures as a single source of sound...


Danley? Jericho and synergy et al? Love the quote on the Caleb spec sheet:
Originally posted by Danley Danley wrote:

... which makes the Caleb a fairly simple product to assemble and install.


It is 2000lb. But at least it comes in 4 sections for ease of getting it through doors and up stairs...

My point is that the flappy bits of paper are still the weak point, and requires significant ply and fibreglass to encourage coupling to air. And someone of Danley's mind to harmonise them all together...

Didn't Danley also do the servodrive transducer - someone seeing the pisspoor nature of the transducer being a serious issue, and trying something different about it. Still flapping bits of paper though. Modern bits of flappy paper have now exceeded the capability of that particular solution, but design of transducer was early 80's, and nothing has really been done since?

So yes, a Caleb does 40Hz-18KHz, 160db @1m peak, but does it from 12 x 18", 32 x 8" and 64 x 1" and from 40KW of 8 channels of amp. But it still uses waggling bits of paper, with huge amounts of ply to get those bits of paper to excite the air in front of the cabinet.

I'm not knocking that, it really is an amazingingly clever solution, and the amount of traditional LA and subs to achieve equivalent would weigh more, and be harder logistics, if all told - however, it is just still using bits of waggly paper.

Imagine what Danley could do with an improved transducer, and then apply ply and fibreglass - he has done with the BT7 way back when, when conventional drivers were no match to the servodrive transducer.

M Drive is an attempt, but it still "waggling paper" (well rigid plastic), just with a trick motor. Danley's servodrive was still a trick motor, waggling bits of paper.

Edited by MattStolton - 12 January 2019 at 10:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 12:46pm
I hear you, and I would love to see it, but that actually goes against his ethos. He prefers to use standard(ish) off the shelf parts that are commonly and readily available, to keep costs reasonable and allow for simple maintenance. There’s no secret as to what drivers live in what boxes, and only two in the entire line need to be bought direct from HQ simply because they have a MoQ from the manufacturer.

For example, the J5 is 12x B&C 18NW100-8, 32x Faital 6PR150-8, and 64x B&C DE400-16.

Isn’t that a little refreshing after rebadged, stupidly expensive ‘OEM’ versions of common drivers in many boxes? Look at the cost d&b charge for a replacement GSL driver kit

M-Force is indeed an attempt to rekindle the Servodrive idea, and considering the original thing went out with U2, Jacko and Happy Monday’s, I can kinda see why. I have however asked about it repeatedly and the short answer is that they can beat the performance using multiple standard drivers for a fraction of the cost and less risk of being buggered if something fails in the field. Remember the belts used to perish in harsh tour locations on BT7, especially since the engineers would turn it up and up due to low distortion compared to the reflex of the time, and then suddenly smell burning rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Isn’t that a little refreshing after rebadged, stupidly expensive ‘OEM’ versions of common drivers in many boxes?

Very, and fits with his apparent ethos.

He does seem to be very open with his designs. Why people buy them rather than make them, is the designs are so damned involved, so clever in the X-Overs, etc, that most people realise fairly quickly that their version wouldn't be close!

Sort of Tesla-esque. Almost open resource, but the openness reveals what an absolute ball-ache copying it would be, versus just buying the finished product!

Once I have made my millions from all the work I'm going to get, what with my new Line Array ( ), I will be looking at Danley for my next rig upgrade options!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 3:19pm
In the interest of fairness and comparison, here is a single SH96, with the same plots (or as close as I can possibly get - same colour scale, same layout, same audience size - since they don't have their GLL enabled for Focus mapping) and data as the hang of RCF HDL6A. With a fly grid, it's within a couple kg of the same weight. Six HDL6A 'should' give 60 degree vertical dispersion, so this is a pretty fair comparison in design.

Horizontal


Vertical


TF


Horizontal deviation


Vertical deviation


DI



16k


8k


6.3k


4k


1k


315Hz



So you can see, they're not perfect. No speaker is. There's a clear lobing at exactly 4k on this box, albeit literally for only 1/3rd oct (it's why I chose this frequency on both) and that's a function of a conical horn of this format, where it is stretched in one direction to achieve a desired pattern. In practice, it's not at all noticeable with real music, but it is there so I'm showing it clearly.

However, you can also see that there is way, way less lobing overall, hardly anything going where the box is not pointed, even down to the lower notes. So, far less reverberant sound, less spill into mics, fewer cables, fewer amps (even for a self powered system, which is available if you desire).

Also there is deviation in response, sure, but look how consistent it is as you move off-axis. So, as we have discussed already, tonal variance is way worse than SPL variance. So long as you're in the stated coverage pattern, the tonal balance is more or less maintained; no 16dB dips and a much flatter line overall in deviation, that doesn't really vary much even quite far off axis. Of course, you can see that 4k issue, in both directions, but since it's there for the majority of the audience, it's filtered out in the preset.

All Danley data is done raw by the way, this is without any EQ or filtering on the box. It's also a passive box, so one amp channel.

And in case you wanted to hear what they sound like, albeit on a phone recording, here's a pair in a real seated 'theatre' venue, without subs:


What did you pay for your HDL again Matt? A grand a box was it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 3:56pm
You are not supposed to post the same picture multiple times, kyle. Once is enough...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

What did you pay for your HDL again Matt? A grand a box was it?


HDL6-A is £1135+VAT UK list. I am not at complete liberty to say what I paid, but it was at a considerable discount, less further settlement, and a "PLASA" little bit % more with first order...Same for the 8004A-S, and all flyware/accessories. List for everything works out at around £27K ex VAT.

I get the lobe behavior is superior on the SH96, clearly demonstrable, but I needed a bit more mutli-purpose. And one man deployable, I haven't got a forklift handy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 4:16pm
Jesus... how do they eat?!

To be fair you would have to spend a lot more cash on Weetabix to lift it by yourself! But I’m comparing flown here anyways.

Just thought i’d complete the picture, since the discussion went there. I’d love to show you a big brand array but they don’t make their data work in Focus either.

But to the OP - this is the results on a line array you get when you have a huge company with lots of R&D time, advanced DSP and knowledge, and good rigging. Your posted plans wouldn’t even come close to this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mini-mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 6:39pm

Couldn't find any easy to use software so modelled mine in lego...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 6:39pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:



Horizontal deviation

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 7:25pm
What about it? In the stated coverage line (pink) it’s very flat for an unprocessed box.
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