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12 line array cab plan

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gen0me View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 9:05pm
Between 4 and 5,5k there is around 9db difference. Then you still see pattern peak valley, peak valley. Overally small horns you buy for 50£ will be flater on high frequencies. You wont get such coverage from them.

PS
Not exactly about quality as its small here but... Fact that horn is treated as one speaker doesnt mean there are no lobes inside it. You can see it at 6.3k 
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

how consistent it is as you move off-axis. 
Yes hard to find anything more consistent overally.
Im curious what eq do you put on them?


Edited by gen0me - 12 January 2019 at 9:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 9:14pm
How about Jerichos? Maybe there it will look nicer. With multiple hf drivers it should. On the other hand spacing between drivers will make a problem.

Edited by gen0me - 12 January 2019 at 9:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Between 4 and 5,5k there is around 9db difference. Then you still see pattern peak valley, peak valley. Overally small horns you buy for 50£ will be flater on high frequencies. You wont get such coverage from them.

PS
Not exactly about quality as its small here but... Fact that horn is treated as one speaker doesnt mean there are no lobes inside it. You can see it at 6.3k 
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

how consistent it is as you move off-axis. 
Yes hard to find anything more consistent overally.
Im curious what eq do you put on them?



Yes but that is consistent so can be adjusted with EQ, how do you fix the massive dips of 17dB in the RCF box?

As I say they’re not perfect, but it’s a big step in the right direction. The Jericho uses a layered combiner, to resolve spacing issues, and the patent is online for that. I can repeat the same sim later but not at my laptop right now with my EASE license.


EDIT: So all the prior plots were done at 10m, because that's where a real listener would be. It makes the data look a lot worse for a point source, but we can compare at 1m since that's where people often do their sims from before building something, and refer back to:

HDL6a



96HO



J3-64



Now these are symmetrical cabinets, so you can compare up close. For asymmetrical boxes, such as the KV2 stuff, it looks horrific at 1m because of the distance between sources varying so much. This is also the case for a line array with a curve in it, of course.

KV2 SL412



However, move further back and these even out a lot more. And since they advocate one, maybe two boxes a side at most, the issue of comb filtering and lobing is still way lower than with a line array.

I'm really curious to hear VHD5.0 on a real show, to be honest.



Edited by toastyghost - 12 January 2019 at 10:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 10:41pm
.

Edited by gen0me - 12 January 2019 at 10:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 11:10pm
Something seemed off to me on the RCF data, it looked smoothed even though I have the lowest smoothing of 1/24th set in GLLviewer, so I got a 'big boy' line array to compare. Here's the DAS Aero50, in 1/24:



Do those look raw data at 1/24th to you?!

Also here's the TF, curious phase data here...


And then the sensitivity shows the box with the array compensation enabled in the preset:


Remember these GLL files are for full acoustic simulation with reflections via raytracing, so the omission and smoothing is an interesting choice.

I have the d&b data too, but it's dinner time.

Edited by toastyghost - 12 January 2019 at 11:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2019 at 8:13am
I think that most would agree that the Danley stuff works. Also line arrays in the rite trained hands kinda work. So Toasty when you take the arch line out what size truck do you take? How many amps and cables?
The same thing for the Danley stuff ? Which is more cost effective? Real questions.


Edited by doller - 13 January 2019 at 8:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2019 at 8:16am
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/line-array-paper.pdf

I was reading this today Thanks again Toasty. Just incase anyone missed it or forgot about it.

Edited by doller - 13 January 2019 at 8:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2019 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by doller doller wrote:

I think that most would agree that the Danley stuff works. Also line arrays in the rite trained hands kinda work. So Toasty when you take the arch line out what size truck do you take? How many amps and cables?
The same thing for the Danley stuff ? Which is more cost effective? Real questions.


The line arrays work fine, but only if you actually know what the problems are and try your best to mitigate them in the design, test and verification stages. The issues are more with the deployments of small hangs, ground stacks, and ‘aimed by eye’ which is frankly utterly wrong.

You’ll always have spurious lobes, based on line length (1 Lambda)

A case of four Arcline 8 weighs 5kg more than a J3-94, not including fly frames.

We can do a 5000 cap live stage in two normal vans with the Danley, including all other equipment and flying towers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2019 at 11:48pm
I know line arrays work I have stood infront of enough. I wouldn't claim for one second that I have any I idear how to use them.
I am was just trying to make the logistical point. It has to be better quicker and cheaper to take the Danley gear. Happy promoters. After all you are in business not charity.
Also try and find used Danley for sale. Snapped up very quickly so if you hate the boxes they hold their price.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2019 at 2:33am
Oh I’m agreeing with you. Real world examples - on some shows last season we were able to supply flying towers and more / better wedge packages for stages because of the cost savings alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2019 at 11:07pm
Okay, so here's a little more fun. These are EASE plots of direct SPL only, no reflections, just to show where the sound goes. All of these are at 2KHz because I don't have all damn day to make a million screenshots. And, I included an actual 12" line array! A bloody good one, by most people's measures...

This is a room thats 45m x 45m, with a 12m roof. Kind of a real, ish venue. Stimulus is broadband pink noise, unweighted, so again, kind of how you'd measure a system in the real world with dual channel FFT.

All speakers are hung at the same point, 5m into the room, on the centre line, at 6m trim.

First up, RCF HDL6a:



Void Arcline 8



d&b GSL8



Danley SH96HO


Danley J3-64


Danley J1-94


KV2 SL412


KV2 VHD2.0


And now, here's the d&b GSL8 hang in broadband A weighted


J3-64 broadband A weighted


J1-94 broadband A weighted


The most expensive point source option here, with amps, at list price, is way, way less than half the cost of the d&b GSL with amps at list price. You can see their cardioid stuff works pretty good, though!

Now, think about all those venues with 120 degree line array cabinets flown right against the walls. I'm looking at you, Glasgow Academy...

Edited by toastyghost - 14 January 2019 at 11:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madboffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2019 at 12:34am
Kyle:

Out of interest, are the Danleys arrayable? For example, if you wanted to do a centre cluster at the Royal Albert Hall, something like 270 degrees horizontal and 90 vertical, and bearing in mind the oval shape of the venue (higher Q horns in the middle).

I've always been a bit of a fan (pun intended) of the multicell concept. Flashlight was a valiant attempt and very good for its time, and I wonder if tapped horns would work in a similar configuration.


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