12 line array cab plan |
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toastyghost
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10920 |
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Yes, and they array better than almost anything else being a single point source. There is gonna be some comb filtering and cancellation but less then you might expect especially at distance.
All the boxes with trapezoid angles array very well. SH46/SH50/J3-64 for example. The only issue would be making a grid for that, as their focus has been on install so far. Tapped Horns are the subs though, the tops are Synergy Horns. Jericho Horns are a Synergy with a Layered Combiner attached to join multiple HF devices as one. Some also employ a Paraline lens. The capitalised terms are all publicly viewable patents if you’re curious how they work. If you needed the level of output you could maybe look at J3-64 in the middle and J2-96 on the outside with something like SH95HO as down fill. Would have to run some sims really. I’m trying to develop my EASE skills so if you have a site plan link I can draw it in SKP and import with rough materials to do some predictions, just for fun. Edited by toastyghost - 15 January 2019 at 1:51am |
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MarjanM
Old Croc Joined: 10 February 2005 Location: Macedonia Status: Offline Points: 7810 |
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KV2??? woow
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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
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toastyghost
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10920 |
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I know. The SL412 is pretty good, not much ‘throw’ but not bad for an asymmetrical box. The VHD 2.0 is a solo box, not the one up one down with VHD1.5 underslung, but still. It looks almost wrong? I aimed it down the same as the other boxes with similar stated coverage patterns, but maybe they expect it to fly straight? I don’t see how that’ll fix the lobes mind. Gonna load that one back up and run some more plots. |
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Speaker Sol
Young Croc Joined: 15 September 2009 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 1320 |
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Really enjoying this thread. Thanks for all the input Toasty.
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toastyghost
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10920 |
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Played some more with the KV2 VHD2.0, aimed it straight on since that's how it is in most of their photos and how I've seen it hung at Frankfurt, still at 6m. I think they use shallow crossover slopes and 2KHz is playing out of multiple parts of the asymmetrical cabinet at once.
10k 6.3k 2k 1k 500Hz 2k 3 oct wide, A weighted Broadband, A weighted So on the whole, it still looks like overall it has better pattern control and less problems than some of those line array systems. |
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bass*en*mass
Old Croc Joined: 03 September 2009 Location: "unknown" Status: Offline Points: 4009 |
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Top job Kyle, thanks for contributing facts on here! |
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gen0me
Young Croc Joined: 20 February 2016 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 999 |
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..but you cant just compare it so simplified. Or add some comment what happens on rest of the spectrum. And what on frequencies close to crossovers?
What is this KV2 VHD clearly audience should be away from the interference of two vertical mids pattern. To be fair I suspect KV2 to be more honest than other manufacturers in their data. Still those mids is rather not a future. Pretty similar to what you said about line arrays sprayed with low angles. You cant fix that mid arrangement. Mids work as on 2 separate horns here aimed in one direction. Not as one horn with 2 mids! So SH and Arclines. They play much more even horizontally. On 2k the best on flat ground. But again, you have most experience with them(?) Cant say that much about Jerichos and GSL 8. Its definitively for bigger audience Maybe different placed. Stadiums are higher at sides lower at ground. Seems perfect there.
You saw how array two horns with nice controlled dispersion (https://forum.speakerplans.com/12-line-array-cab-plan_topic103085_page7.html). Hmm I should drop weightened. Those horns were 60cm from each other(membranes not mouths!) with measurement 4m from them. Small issues on higher frequencies on symetry axis. And 2 Jerichos arrayed should spray pattern more uniformly towards flat ground.
Edited by gen0me - 17 January 2019 at 12:52am |
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toastyghost
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10920 |
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I've shown what happens on the rest of the spectrum, there are broadband and multiple octave plots displayed as well. If there are issues present with the 'best of the best' of line arrays, you can be damn sure they're in 'lesser' boxes too.
I chose 2k because that is what is commonly used by most manufacturers and installers, because it is a central speech frequency, and should sit right within the waveguide pattern, so again, if it doesn't have good pattern control there, it's generally going to be worse everywhere else. People are of course welcome to spend their own 2000+ euros on a copy of EASE to do their own sims |
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MattStolton
Old Croc Joined: 04 September 2010 Location: Walthamstow Status: Offline Points: 4234 |
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Have you ever heard/worked with any of the alcons audio boxes?
In theory, at least the HF, being a long ribbon, it should be trying to create a cylindrical wave-front from source. They deliberately "stack" the ribbons in LA hangs, as close as possible to each other, and claim this maintains coherence between adjacent HFs. We all know what to think about manufacturer claims, but I can see some physics in the spiel. Much as the HF claims to be sorted, your still left with bass/mid from conventional drivers so total line length will dictate LA behaviours in the lower frequencies. And Ribbons don't go that low, even the big Alcon's ones... However, they have engineered in some durability and sensitivity, the normal flaws of ribbons, to make them at least as resilient/loud as traditional comp drivers, and they do an 18" ribbon which will go quite "low". They offer waterfall plots of the 6" doing 1-20KHz, so low enough? One area of suspicion is no reference anywhere, for any cabinet, at what frequency they cross to HF, that I can find. However, as you mentioned about HF "doing -3db" where mid bass do "-6dB", they do publish Fresnel/Fraunhofer data clearly stating at what frequency, vs how long the line array is, the extent of breaking the inverse square law: For their baby LR7/90 LA box, pdf here: https://www.alconsaudio.com/wp-content/plugins/download-attachments/includes/download.php?id=371 Refreshing honesty from a manufacturer, but also nice to see that unless the line is very long, you get no breaking of inverse square law, at relatively high frequencies. Given a single box offers some cylindrical wavefront from 2K, suggests HF crosses just below? |
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Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains" |
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toastyghost
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10920 |
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I too can see physics in their work, and it's really the only 'true' line array, but I haven't heard the majority of it except in demo rooms.
A venue near us (now closed) had QR36 (https://www.alconsaudio.com/product/qr36/) system, two a side, with the double 15" subs. It did sound really nice, broad coverage, but it didn't get loud even before they got hit with noise limits. Especially on clubnights, it was good enough for a third of the venue, but the rest was super quiet. I hear good things about the RR12 and its the box I would most like to use. And it is nice to see them talk properly, such as here: https://www.alconsaudio.com/line-array-technology/ I'll get their GLL and rerun the same sim when I have time. |
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toastyghost
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Finally got some time to do the Alcons LR18:
And another point source, the Fulcrum AH96: First is 2k 1/3rd oct, Z weighting, second is broadband dBA. Anyone wanna suggest any more? |
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fatfreddiescat
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Martin MLA?
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