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Boxes-R-Blue View Drop Down
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Points: 147 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boxes-R-Blue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 July 2019 at 1:57am
Originally posted by Safetyman Safetyman wrote:

Originally posted by Boxes-R-Blue Boxes-R-Blue wrote:

But your AMF pulled the cold standby in in 20Secs right...

2 hours for an airlock? Stroll on the machine was junk!


I reckon this 100kva unit had not been used for some time, possibly weeks, and the vapour lock was the result of it being left in the sun for all of that time. They obviously did not take the trouble to make sure that it was fully operational before they delivered it. The two hours included building the staging once the canopy had been inflated, and having to recharge the on-board batteries with the tow vehicle, which had been completely flattened. So, that put the sound crew back by 2 hours, which meant a very rushed, late, start instead of a controlled set-up, with sound check. Only one hour late, but the punters were getting very restless by that time........

A decent prime will have a lift pump capable of bursting a "vapour lock" as you putting in seconds of cranking so not buying that.

And as a hire 'set is was pulled to jacket temp and load banked within the last 24 hours prior to hire ( even Aggreko manage this) your are wearing the worlds most expensive rose tinted specs here, FYI

2 hours, or 200 hours, no one cares, right first time on time or go and get a job stacking shelves...
Kinda Been there, Kinda done that, YOU COULDN'T handle my bar bill!
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Originally posted by Boxes-R-Blue Boxes-R-Blue wrote:

Originally posted by Safetyman Safetyman wrote:

Originally posted by Boxes-R-Blue Boxes-R-Blue wrote:

But your AMF pulled the cold standby in in 20Secs right...

2 hours for an airlock? Stroll on the machine was junk!


I reckon this 100kva unit had not been used for some time, possibly weeks, and the vapour lock was the result of it being left in the sun for all of that time. They obviously did not take the trouble to make sure that it was fully operational before they delivered it. The two hours included building the staging once the canopy had been inflated, and having to recharge the on-board batteries with the tow vehicle, which had been completely flattened. So, that put the sound crew back by 2 hours, which meant a very rushed, late, start instead of a controlled set-up, with sound check. Only one hour late, but the punters were getting very restless by that time........

A decent prime will have a lift pump capable of bursting a "vapour lock" as you putting in seconds of cranking so not buying that.

And as a hire 'set is was pulled to jacket temp and load banked within the last 24 hours prior to hire ( even Aggreko manage this) your are wearing the worlds most expensive rose tinted specs here, FYI

2 hours, or 200 hours, no one cares, right first time on time or go and get a job stacking shelves...



Yes, but does that not depend on where the vapour/air lock is ? If it is in the pump, that is 'a different kettle of fish', whereas if it is in the filter housing then you could well be right. I was informed that it had auto pre-heat for the plugs, when i suggested that they give it a lot longer on pre-heat, to see if that worked. The crew did not have anyone on site that had much knowledge of that particular model of genny. So, after flattening the on board battery, they had to jumpstart it using the tow vehicle, under telephone instruction from a higher authority. At the end of the day, the show went on and was a success, despite all this rather amateurish hassle, which was really embarassing, but outside of my control. Big smile
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Originally posted by Safetyman Safetyman wrote:

... they had earmarked a 60kva genny for this event... the one they brought along which was 100kva.... they had over-spec'd the power by a factor of around 9, allowing for the stalls/small fridges that also needed power


So, all ways round, considered "significant TES" according to any interpretation of BS7909.

So who was SPR? Who designed the TES? Who was responsible for measuring and testing? Who was liaising with Local Authority, who was the Event manager. Just sounds like a clusterfuck of idiots having sex about without a clue.

Once you are over 6KVA, you have no excuse but to actually design all points of the TES. From generation and earthing arrangements, or outlet on wall - all the way to final circuits to allow appliances to be plugged in. It even mentions how, if your being really anally retentive about it, you need to mention the h05 used in the appliance lead sets as a deviation from BS7909, on your sign off sheet!

I know there are some that scorn BS7909, but it is a minimum standard to work by, which gets the temporary electrical system designed correctly and basic testing done.

Am I the only cu.nt who gets pulled up if I forget to complete one irrelevant line of paperwork, whereas every other cu.nt seems to not even know the paperwork exists in the first place?
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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Originally posted by Safetyman Safetyman wrote:

... they had earmarked a 60kva genny for this event... the one they brought along which was 100kva.... they had over-spec'd the power by a factor of around 9, allowing for the stalls/small fridges that also needed power



Just a thing, Over sized sets are actually nearly as much trouble as under sized, if someone dropped a pair of 100s....


In fact i won't finish that, because no one i deal with would drop the wrong sets, if you want 60 (like you have a clue) and they drop 100s you would want a 20KW load bank and fuel offset to match.
Kinda Been there, Kinda done that, YOU COULDN'T handle my bar bill!
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Originally posted by Boxes-R-Blue Boxes-R-Blue wrote:

 
Originally posted by Safetyman Safetyman wrote:

... they had earmarked a 60kva genny for this event... the one they brought along which was 100kva.... they had over-spec'd the power by a factor of around 9, allowing for the stalls/small fridges that also needed power



Just a thing, Over sized sets are actually nearly as much trouble as under sized, if someone dropped a pair of 100s....


In fact i won't finish that, because no one i deal with would drop the wrong sets, if you want 60 (like you have a clue) and they drop 100s you would want a 20KW load bank and fuel offset to match.



To be fair to both the genny team and the hirers, I rather suspect that the hirers did not know what the stall holders were likely to need on the day( amps etc ), so the genny team over spec'd to be on the safe side( based on past experience of people with little knowledge of electrical requirements ). As it happens, I was not kept in the loop, so I had no knowledge of any of this until the 100kva genny turned-up on the day, to stand-in for the 60kva set, that was still out on another job. I assumed, as had happened the year before, that we were going to use mains power from the buildings, on separate feeds, all controlled by the premises manager. I only found out two days before from the organisers, that a genny had been hired through a friend of theirs. The organisers refused to give me any further info, apart from the over spec of some 25%  to estimated requirements, via the genny team. When the genny team saw the sound equipment, and the rest of the equipment on site, they realised that this was a very small event, similar to a school fete, so their genny etc was complete overkill.RIDICULOUS....... Embarrassed


Edited by Safetyman - 14 July 2019 at 5:15pm
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Points: 5699 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacethebase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2019 at 9:54am
Sounds like a issue you get when hiring sets from builder merchants. 
Someone try’s to change the fuel filter when it’s came back from a quarry and forgets to bleed the fuel lines.

Generally get the sets in place a few days before and run them up. Morning of the event is madness IMHO. Leaves no time.
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Originally posted by Safetyman Safetyman wrote:

Originally posted by Boxes-R-Blue Boxes-R-Blue wrote:

 
Originally posted by Safetyman Safetyman wrote:

... they had earmarked a 60kva genny for this event... the one they brought along which was 100kva.... they had over-spec'd the power by a factor of around 9, allowing for the stalls/small fridges that also needed power



Just a thing, Over sized sets are actually nearly as much trouble as under sized, if someone dropped a pair of 100s....


In fact i won't finish that, because no one i deal with would drop the wrong sets, if you want 60 (like you have a clue) and they drop 100s you would want a 20KW load bank and fuel offset to match.



To be fair to both the genny team and the hirers, I rather suspect that the hirers did not know what the stall holders were likely to need on the day( amps etc ), so the genny team over spec'd to be on the safe side( based on past experience of people with little knowledge of electrical requirements ). As it happens, I was not kept in the loop, so I had no knowledge of any of this until the 100kva genny turned-up on the day, to stand-in for the 60kva set, that was still out on another job. I assumed, as had happened the year before, that we were going to use mains power from the buildings, on separate feeds, all controlled by the premises manager. I only found out two days before from the organisers, that a genny had been hired through a friend of theirs. The organisers refused to give me any further info, apart from the over spec of some 25%  to estimated requirements, via the genny tesm. When the genny team saw the sound equipment, and the rest of the equipment on site, they realised that this was a very small event, similar to a school fete, so their genny etc was complete overkill.RIDICULOUS....... Embarrassed



Yeah I think it’s already well established that the system was not designed or compliant, and fully dangerous.
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Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

Originally posted by Safetyman Safetyman wrote:

... they had earmarked a 60kva genny for this event... the one they brought along which was 100kva.... they had over-spec'd the power by a factor of around 9, allowing for the stalls/small fridges that also needed power


So, all ways round, considered "significant TES" according to any interpretation of BS7909.

So who was SPR? Who designed the TES? Who was responsible for measuring and testing? Who was liaising with Local Authority, who was the Event manager. Just sounds like a clusterfuck of idiots having sex about without a clue.

Once you are over 6KVA, you have no excuse but to actually design all points of the TES. From generation and earthing arrangements, or outlet on wall - all the way to final circuits to allow appliances to be plugged in. It even mentions how, if your being really anally retentive about it, you need to mention the h05 used in the appliance lead sets as a deviation from BS7909, on your sign off sheet!

I know there are some that scorn BS7909, but it is a minimum standard to work by, which gets the temporary electrical system designed correctly and basic testing done.

Am I the only cu.nt who gets pulled up if I forget to complete one irrelevant line of paperwork, whereas every other cu.nt seems to not even know the paperwork exists in the first place?

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Don't forget the cdm regulations......
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Originally posted by woody2 woody2 wrote:

Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

Originally posted by Safetyman Safetyman wrote:

... they had earmarked a 60kva genny for this event... the one they brought along which was 100kva.... they had over-spec'd the power by a factor of around 9, allowing for the stalls/small fridges that also needed power


So, all ways round, considered "significant TES" according to any interpretation of BS7909.

So who was SPR? Who designed the TES? Who was responsible for measuring and testing? Who was liaising with Local Authority, who was the Event manager. Just sounds like a clusterfuck of idiots having sex about without a clue.

Once you are over 6KVA, you have no excuse but to actually design all points of the TES. From generation and earthing arrangements, or outlet on wall - all the way to final circuits to allow appliances to be plugged in. It even mentions how, if your being really anally retentive about it, you need to mention the h05 used in the appliance lead sets as a deviation from BS7909, on your sign off sheet!

I know there are some that scorn BS7909, but it is a minimum standard to work by, which gets the temporary electrical system designed correctly and basic testing done.

Am I the only cu.nt who gets pulled up if I forget to complete one irrelevant line of paperwork, whereas every other cu.nt seems to not even know the paperwork exists in the first place?

Clap

Don't forget the cdm regulations......

What Matt said, 100%.

All this ‘it’s only a school fete’ stuff  - if it’s over 6kva it’s as serious as the Pyramid stage in the eyes of the Law.
CDM regs are a whole different can of worms
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Originally posted by dylan-penguinmedia dylan-penguinmedia wrote:

Originally posted by woody2 woody2 wrote:



Don't forget the cdm regulations......

CDM regs are a whole different can of worms


Tryin like fook to wriggle out of even more paperwork 'cos of bloody CDM currently.

Luckily "as PA systems are specifically mentioned as being exempt" from CIS (IR35 CIS340 Appendix 44), I'm using that to get away with not supplying a pile of pointless shite. My RAMS for running two cables ran to 12 pages, and thought that was enough.

Get to site, 3 more pages of tick box video watching induction per body, and then require "Ladder Permit" to use a ladder on site, per ladder, per week. Only one page of A4 per ladder, per week.

We discussed my 25W antex soldering iron, and in my MS I had included for a Hot Working RA, and specimen Hot Works Permit, and the site manager said I would need one, and laughed that he would call it a tepid works permit. As and when, will need 2 sides of A4 to be filled in, and then separate body to loiter with a fire extinguisher, until at least an hour after I have finished soldering an XLR onto some mic cable.

But heh-ho, that is how the world is, passing of buck and lots of tress are being kept in filing cabinets for 7 years...
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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I have got a school fete on Friday. Under 500W 100V Line if I plan it right, but will do RCD block in wall (it is a school, and I know it has a valid Periodic, and has 30mA RCD on every outlet...), to 13A to Cee16A out via 1.5mm, Cee16A in to 2.5mm to Cee16A Out. Repeat until PA reached, then Cee16A In to to PA's 4 way block via a bit more 2.5, all in H07. Appliance lead sets will be in H05, but given they will inside a rack, unlikely to cause an issue, and I'm happy to sign this off as a variation to BS7909.

There we go, TES planned, and designed and written down. Quick test once installed, and jobs good. Everything gets picked Friday Morning, and only stuff in valid PAT gets pulled out, or put in the "To Be Tested" Pile, tested before going to site anyway, and then tested once completed on site.

Job Done.
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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Points: 300 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andylaser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2019 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:



My RAMS for running two cables ran to 12 pages

3 more pages of tick box video watching induction per body, and then require "Ladder Permit" Only one page of A4 per ladder, per week.

my 25W antex soldering iron, will need 2 sides of A4 to be filled in, and then separate body to loiter with a fire extinguisher, until at least an hour after I have finished soldering an XLR onto some mic cable.

But heh-ho, that is how the world is, passing of buck and lots of tress are being kept in filing cabinets for 7 years...


I spent last week in a fan filter gallery at a nuclear licenced site fixing an RF welder. It had taken almost 3 weeks to get the work sanctioned. There were 85 pages of paperwork, risk assessments and safety procedures.  Unhappy
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