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Amps available today ?
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martinsson View Drop Down
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Points: 325 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martinsson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2019 at 9:42am
As for what amplifiers made today could be considered macrotech equivalent I thinkthe FP range from lab.gruppen may be of interest, straight forward amps, no dsp, but they are smps based.
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Points: 7216 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2019 at 11:53am
Originally posted by C-Audiofreak C-Audiofreak wrote:

Because switch mode psu I’ve had in the past didn’t like generators the sae amps didn’t like generators either but never had an issue with the transformer amps



Yes - my experience as well. Both with some QSC and Powersoft (Digam) amps. I´d say that most large PA companies don´t keep their amps for that long, so long-term reliability is not an issue for them, whereas weight is. Watts have become cheap, fuel and transport expensive.
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Originally posted by martinsson martinsson wrote:

As for what amplifiers made today could be considered macrotech equivalent I thinkthe FP range from lab.gruppen may be of interest, straight forward amps, no dsp, but they are smps based.

Unfortunately, there are so many blatant Lab Gruppen FP copies on the market today, a potential buyer would think twice of buying an original Lab Gruppen FP series for being labeled as using a clone on a constant basis. Financially, that could hurt your revenue. Things may be different in Sweden as that is Lab Gruppen's homeland. In the States you rarely hear anyone talk about Lab Gruppen FP Series compared to 10 - 20 years ago. Once the clones started popping up Lab Gruppen FP Series chatter slowed down.   

Powersoft K copies are in abundance as well but at least, they do not look like a Powersoft K amplifier.

C-Audiofreak reasoning on sticking with non switch mode amplifiers is a good business decision on his part.

Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
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Originally posted by Fred_dibna Fred_dibna wrote:

I thought the MA2400 bridged on subs sounded good.


Crown MA2400 is fantastic amp, sounds great on mid tops, and low powered sub drivers.

But even in bridge, can't properly power a pair of today's 1KW drivers, without clipping, and a QSC CX1102 on mid tops, is superior, for less weight, and same used price. Approx £350.
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We had fp6400, great amp indeed as it is but could not keep up when compared to "old iron" like MX3000A. 

Even tho mx3000a is heavy weight, its one of my favourite medium power amplifiers. Great for subs or mid-tops too. Well made circuitry and very good SQ.

rmx 4050 (and 5050) seems to be very similar amps, but no real world experience about those. 



Edited by Tonskulus - 14 December 2019 at 2:39pm
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Originally posted by martinsson martinsson wrote:

I agree that there is a lot going on in transducer developent, materials, modeling accuracy (both speakers and venue/coverage) and dsp implementation, but as far as loudspeaker design goes it has in my opinion stagnated resulting in a massive conformaty in products offered from the big names, save for a few, very few infact, that keeps at it, but I'm not above being wrong about this.


the last twenty years has seen the Danley unity horn and shaded-amplitude lens, Martin MLA, and Keele's CBT array which JBL have commercialised - all highly innovative new approaches.
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martinsson View Drop Down
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Points: 325 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martinsson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2019 at 5:51pm
Yes, that's roughly the list I arrived at myself except for the cbt but with the polyhorn as implemented in the aspect series, that makes that six good examples of inovation in the past twenty years, now take a moment to think about how many of these you see out there, I guess the MLA is the most common which is a very sophisticated linearray mainly regarding the acoustic modeling and dsp work based upon it with great implemention, as for the transducer loading tech there is not that much new there albeit not surfacemounted, it is a very intresting product.

This is my point, these great examples will all but diminish if put next to the wast conformity that otherwise plagues the clear majority offerings, I bet there is about a 100/1 ratio between the numbers of low tuned inefficient surfacemounted lf solutions (read bassreflex) compared to th's, flh's and higher order qw designs, the same could be said for the next range up (mid), I would even say that the same ratio applies between linarray and pointsource, why is this?

Look at the work done by Kenton Forsythe, Tony Andrews and Tom Danley (to name a few well known ones), sureley br and surfacemounting is not the best we can do, yet it is frequently put forward in the top offering in the wast majority of cases, again why?

I may be wrong, but I belive the industry used to be more diversified and intresting, and there was nothing wrong in the slightest with the expiriences these system provided the audience, currently rembering flashlight as one of the absolute highlights of my personal expiriences.




Edited by martinsson - 14 December 2019 at 6:02pm
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martinsson View Drop Down
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Points: 325 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martinsson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2019 at 7:48pm
Quote Unfortunately, there are so many blatant Lab Gruppen FP copies on the market today, a potential buyer would think twice of buying an original Lab Gruppen FP series for being labeled as using a clone on a constant basis. Financially, that could hurt your revenue.


Yes, that's right Elliot you told me about that before, it slipped my mind there, sorry, and I can see how that could be the case, but I still do not want to believe it, it's just to sad that people don't investigate such things before jumping to the conclusions, if I had a substantial inventory of those amp's (which i did) I'd be slightly more then a little upset at the situation since copies or not those amps would still do the job of delivering.

By the way, how do you see this impacting the second hand market pricing of the FP series? (if at all?)
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Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

Originally posted by martinsson martinsson wrote:

I agree that there is a lot going on in transducer developent, materials, modeling accuracy (both speakers and venue/coverage) and dsp implementation, but as far as loudspeaker design goes it has in my opinion stagnated resulting in a massive conformaty in products offered from the big names, save for a few, very few infact, that keeps at it, but I'm not above being wrong about this.


the last twenty years has seen the Danley unity horn and shaded-amplitude lens, Martin MLA, and Keele's CBT array which JBL have commercialised - all highly innovative new approaches.


should have mentioned powersoft M-drive too
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martinsson View Drop Down
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Points: 325 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martinsson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2019 at 6:06am
M-drive yes, thats true, thats transducer development but also a drive system solution, very intresting stuff, so is Ipal even if that is a bit more traditioal regarding the mechanics, I wonder if M-drive will catch on once the patents expire, and if it will spread beyond low frequency applications, not sure about the moving mass limitations in that case.
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Originally posted by martinsson martinsson wrote:



By the way, how do you see this impacting the second hand market pricing of the FP series? (if at all?)



In the States, if one is going to purchase a brand new FP Series, it would make sense to contact Lab Gruppen direct, to find an authorised dealer in the States to ensure they are buyer an original FP Series amplifier.


On the used market, the FP 13000/14000 goes for around $2600.00 U.S.


A fake Lab Gruppen FP 14000 can be purchased brand new for $650.00 - $700.00 U.S.


As I mentioned in a previous thread, if the average sound man looked at a rack full of real FP 14000 amplifiers and a rack full of fake FP 14000 amplifiers, they could not tell the difference due to the similarities of the fake FP 14000 resemblance to the real FP 14000 in terms of the face plate. Since the Lab Gruppen FP clone amplifiers has gain so much popularity throughout the years in the States, who is going to show the back of the amplifier to prove the naysayers wrong that it is indeed an Lab Gruppen FP original and not a clone?


I would imagine it would not matter for the small sound man that uses 2 – 4 amplifiers at their events. However, the larger sound man that are toting 20 – 50 amplifiers at their events would think otherwise.


Best Regards,


Elliot Thompson
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Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Originally posted by Fred_dibna Fred_dibna wrote:

I thought the MA2400 bridged on subs sounded good.


Crown MA2400 is fantastic amp, sounds great on mid tops, and low powered sub drivers.

But even in bridge, can't properly power a pair of today's 1KW drivers, without clipping, and a QSC CX1102 on mid tops, is superior, for less weight, and same used price. Approx £350.


Yeah it's only rated at about 1,600 watts maximum average power bridged.
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