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fatfreddiescat View Drop Down
Young Croc
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    Posted: 17 September 2020 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

Originally posted by BJtheDJ BJtheDJ wrote:

Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Originally posted by BJtheDJ BJtheDJ wrote:

Sorry my friend, but (with the greatest of respect and not trying to insult you) you're just plain wrong there, 

Go lookup how a balanced circuits work and then tell me how I'm wrong.



OK.  I don't have to look it up.  You're wrong.

What you illustrate above is a balanced circuit (balanced circuits are always mono), and completely different to the circuit in question.

The OP has a stereo signal composed of two channels of unbalanced audio.

A balanced signal and a stereo signal are two completely different things, although you can have stereo balanced signals they'd need at least 5 connections (a pair of balanced connections for each channel and a common ground connection) to work properly - not the three that are in question here.

A balanced signal is a mono signal that has two components in anti-phase which are summed with each other, because of that any noise picked up is identical in both sides of the circuit and then cancels itself in the summing amplifier or the transformer (whichever is in use) of the input.

An unbalanced signal has a signal wire and a ground wire as illustrated by you in the picture that you posted in https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=105701&PID=1046793&title=steve-hillage#1046793 where it can be clearly seen that that the two jacks are not not balanced.

Even if both of those were inserted into the same channel of an amplifier then they would still be in phase and would not cancel but would instead be summed.


a balanced system doesn't sum the two signals, it takes the difference between the hot and cold signals resulting in +6dB

It will add to 6dB with a differential output but not always with a balanced output, balanced just means that the two lines are impedance matched, there may only be a signal on one line which is fairly common as is cheap but effective.
Plugging L and R into a differential input still holds true re cancellation or addition, depending on whether one of the lines from the source is inverted or not.
 


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Points: 3122 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 September 2020 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by BJtheDJ BJtheDJ wrote:

Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Originally posted by BJtheDJ BJtheDJ wrote:

Sorry my friend, but (with the greatest of respect and not trying to insult you) you're just plain wrong there, 

Go lookup how a balanced circuits work and then tell me how I'm wrong.



OK.  I don't have to look it up.  You're wrong.

What you illustrate above is a balanced circuit (balanced circuits are always mono), and completely different to the circuit in question.

The OP has a stereo signal composed of two channels of unbalanced audio.

A balanced signal and a stereo signal are two completely different things, although you can have stereo balanced signals they'd need at least 5 connections (a pair of balanced connections for each channel and a common ground connection) to work properly - not the three that are in question here.

A balanced signal is a mono signal that has two components in anti-phase which are summed with each other, because of that any noise picked up is identical in both sides of the circuit and then cancels itself in the summing amplifier or the transformer (whichever is in use) of the input.

An unbalanced signal has a signal wire and a ground wire as illustrated by you in the picture that you posted in https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=105701&PID=1046793&title=steve-hillage#1046793 where it can be clearly seen that that the two jacks are not not balanced.

Even if both of those were inserted into the same channel of an amplifier then they would still be in phase and would not cancel but would instead be summed.


a balanced system doesn't sum the two signals, it takes the difference between the hot and cold signals resulting in +6dB and cancellation of inteference. if you put a left and a right stereo signal into a balanced input instead of hot and cold (inverted) then difference between them will cancel out most of the signal.
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Points: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bin juice24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 September 2020 at 5:31pm
Plugged in the y cable and tada!

I could swear that I saw it up in the sky
On the eve but I never knew they could fly
It was green as an emerald in the blue
Now I'm wondering if it was really you


Thanks again for your input.
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Points: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bin juice24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 September 2020 at 12:09pm
Apologies for not updating this thread. My cable has arrived but I haven’t had time to test it, busy with work.
I’ll definitely try it this evening. It’s Thursday after all. Good for playing som Gong.
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Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

To be fair he doesn't say what he's using into the mixer,  i suspect 3.5 to 2x1/4" or 2xRCA. Surely can't be many using 3.5 to xlr, it makes no sense. 

A 1/4" to 1/8" TRS adapter and an XLR to TRS cable are easy to find so it wouldn't take much effort to put together what looks like(but isn't) a valid solution. 


Edited by Conanski - 16 September 2020 at 11:23pm
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To be fair he doesn't say what he's using into the mixer,  i suspect 3.5 to 2x1/4" or 2xRCA. Surely can't be many using 3.5 to xlr, it makes no sense. 
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Points: 2537 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conanski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2020 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by MarcoAudio MarcoAudio wrote:

I plug external sources like phones etc into the microphone line into mixer using a 3.5 adapter with a long lead. Get good results that way.

Unless your mic input isn't balanced the results you get connecting that way are going to vary wildy depending upon the source recording, I suggest you try the cable style suggest in this thread and compare the results, I think you will discover your way doesn't work nearly as well as you think it does.
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Points: 35 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarcoAudio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2020 at 1:11pm
I don't know if I understand the original posters needs correctly but I plug external sources like phones etc into the microphone line into mixer using a 3.5 adapter with a long lead round the then can adjust volume, bass and treble with the mixer's microphone controls. Get good results that way.
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Points: 1083 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatfreddiescat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2020 at 9:21am
Just to add re stereo jack to two XLR's cable or any unbalanced to balanced input, an improvement in CMMR may be had by using two core plus screen cable and shorting pin1 to pin3 at the source end of the cable instead of at the XLR end, this is because any noise induced on the signal line connected to pin2 on the XLR (or stereo jack etc)  may to a degree be present on the line to pin3. 
Not much fun trying to make one of these up with a 3.5mm jack plug though.

Using the circuit as pictured in one of my previous posts it is possible to make a balanced line adaptor for your phone / ipad/ laptop etc with 2 resistors and a capacitor. This is due to the fact that a balanced line connection is two impedance matched lines, only one of which needs to carry your signal, by being impedance matched any interference appearing on one line will appear on the other, in phase and in equal level, the receiving end will then invert one and add the two together therefore cancelling the interference (never 100%). You will need measure the output impedance of your unbalance device to do this and the more accurate you are the better the CMMR performance will be.

Headphone outputs should be well suited to this as have a low source impedance, ideal as a cheap method for long runs in fixed installs.
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Originally posted by alglw alglw wrote:

This is a very common problem as the 3.5mm jack stereo ( left,right,and ground.) Gets wired to a single xlr by some adaptors ( or ‘bright spark without a clue’ ) wired as left to +,right to-,and ground to ground.
The balanced input does its job and subtracts - from + and all that’s remains of the music is reverb and little or no bass and no lead vocals.
The information being given is to help sort the problem. I gave up replying a long time ago as it seems the people asking questions didn’t like being told they were wrong.

Thanks for your input. I’ve just received a stereo y cable and will try that later.

I really don’t mind being told I’m wrong. Surely that’s the whole point of asking why something isn’t working?
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Points: 10 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alglw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2020 at 9:33pm
This is a very common problem as the 3.5mm jack stereo ( left,right,and ground.) Gets wired to a single xlr by some adaptors ( or ‘bright spark without a clue’ ) wired as left to +,right to-,and ground to ground.
The balanced input does its job and subtracts - from + and all that’s remains of the music is reverb and little or no bass and no lead vocals.
The information being given is to help sort the problem. I gave up replying a long time ago as it seems the people asking questions didn’t like being told they were wrong.
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Points: 1083 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatfreddiescat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2020 at 9:21pm
As still a little unclear with regards the OP's cabling, the cable Conanski has posted is correct for an amp with jack inputs whether or not the inputs are differential and balanced or not. If using xlr in then signal should appear on pin2 or pin3 ( pin2 is more common)of the xlr only, other pin linked to pin1 on xlr. One xlr for left and another for right channels not left and right connected to a single xlr.
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