Live band, upgrade tops to match mth30 |
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ALt
Registered User Joined: 20 September 2018 Location: Birmingham, UK Status: Offline Points: 20 |
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Posted: 26 September 2020 at 12:09pm |
Hiya,
Play in a 7 piece ska reggae band. Use mth30 for sub, love it, it's small and pack size and space at venues tight. Have some old hi compact classic 12s with apt150 as tops. Ok, but harsh at times. I'd like to build new, narrow, tops with wide horizontal coverage, any ideas ? Slightly keen on omnitop 8s ( 2 8s with 2 compression drivers, but ports are on sides of cabinet! Isn't that a feedback issue!!? Sorry if its a dumb question...! Otherwise if you had 400£ to make two narrow cab, with passive crossovers, ( Will try to design these myself to match drivers,,): what would you do? 2 way or three way, some sort of horn or reflex, cheers guys!! |
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ALt
Registered User Joined: 20 September 2018 Location: Birmingham, UK Status: Offline Points: 20 |
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Sorry typo, that's HK compact classics, not hi!
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studio45
Old Croc Joined: 16 October 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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That is a tight budget to build 2 boxes. Especially as a decent passive crossover can easily be £50 in components per box once you have the main and corrective filters all worked out, and you use properly rated 400v caps and 1mm wire inductors.
2x10" + 1" is a good format for small live band PA. A quick look on Bluearan indicates you could buy four Beyma 10CMV2 woofers, two Fane CD131 comps and two Fane ELH-004 horns for about £325. Then a sheet of ply is around £50, leaving only £25 in your budget for passive crossovers and hardware. Alternatively, a 12" + 1" design could work well; you could get 2x Fane Sovereign 12-300, 2x CD131 and 2x ELH-004 for around £290, leaving £110 for the rest - more workable, but I still think you're going to end up spending around £500 on this project. I do recommend you stick with the large ELH-004 horn or something similar - if you use a typical small 1" horn, you will not be able to cross it over low enough to avoid laser-like beaming from your low-mid driver(s). This messes up the sound for listeners off-axis (no hi-mids for them). The ELH-003 can load down to 1000Hz, meaning a 1.6kHz crossover point is easily within its grasp, and there will be only minor pattern aberration around the crossover point (even sound for everyone!). If you try to cross over low on a small horn, the shouty distortion sound you're trying to get away from, will be the result.
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Studio45 - Repairs & Building Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA
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ALt
Registered User Joined: 20 September 2018 Location: Birmingham, UK Status: Offline Points: 20 |
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Hi,
Cheers for the advice and info, really helpful! Penny sort of dropped! The APT150 is a short horn, can't drop crossover low enough to get over beaming from 12. I think I might reuse the Fane250tc that are in cab already, replace tweeter and horn with suggested fane parts and see how a test cabinet sounds. Must admit the more I read on crossovers the more I think I need some software to assist , but will persevere. There's a design on fane website that's similar so will play a bit with win isd to see how my existing Fane will work. That one has a sovereign pro 12, cd150 and your recommended ELH horn as well as a fane X over. Not sure if it will be ideal using the crossover with my fane 250tc, but will reach out to fane to see what they say. Keen to use UK manufacturer for speakers if at all possible. Can anyone see any major flaw with plan? Ohhh... Last question, is it more beneficial in you guys ( and girls) opinion to go three way, add maybe 8's to this design, or is that a waste of time, cheers, Al
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studio45
Old Croc Joined: 16 October 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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Right on, if you do just replace the tweets I recommend BMS drivers - they have more low end range than most other makes, meaning even their smallest models can cope with 1k6 crossover. The Cd150 is generally no good below 3k even on a big horn. Cd131 a little better but if you don't have to buy woofers go for BMS.
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Studio45 - Repairs & Building Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA
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njw
Old Croc Joined: 26 March 2010 Location: S. Wales Status: Offline Points: 2574 |
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+1 for BMS, personally I'd keep it simple and fit the biggest horns you can into your existing cabs, fit some BMS 4550's onto those horns and replace the existing crossovers with 1.2khz two way crossovers. You'll probably find that you'll also need an L pad on the comp driver as the BMS drivers are very efficient or alternatively bring the HF down on your EQ. I can guarantee this would give a vast improvement over the APT150's.
Edited by njw - 28 September 2020 at 8:46pm |
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ALt
Registered User Joined: 20 September 2018 Location: Birmingham, UK Status: Offline Points: 20 |
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Hey,
Ok, thinking yes to BMS tweeters, will have to make a new cab as old only just big enough to fit APT150 and 12 inch!! . Will play with win isd and see what I come up with.. Will post in new thread once I get design together. The idea of using a horn type speaker will go on back burner, only really need this if we ever play outdoors I reckon , which might only be once a year, for pubs a regular reflex with good tweeter sounds like a good move. Thanks for the advice, much appreciated!
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mk2_ginger_biscuit69
Old Croc Joined: 03 November 2008 Location: Brighton Status: Offline Points: 7801 |
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pair of coaxial 12" cabs, 'like the' L'acoustics 12XT, compact, loud, should be within budget (especially as you can get dedicated premade xovers for a coax. Simple build, small truck pack, good sound. Sorted
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''Remember that the object of a subwoofer is to enhance the output of your main speakers, not overpower it''
''Dubstep - an elongated electronic fart'' |
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ALt
Registered User Joined: 20 September 2018 Location: Birmingham, UK Status: Offline Points: 20 |
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Oh man, I get the point source aspect of coaxials, but sadly for where we play I think they might offer too much sound to the ceiling and floor, but I do hear that some coaxials can sound great. Weirdly thinking of putting a spare fane. 250tc in a wedge box, without tweeter as a monitor speaker.. poor man's coaxial! Have heard that can work surprisingly high (17khz!!) with the three whizzers, off axes would be a bit
....poor , but for a wedge, right in front of player hopefully will beat our current version with, yup, another APT150 with cheap off the shelf crossover (oop s..)Sax player says ...it sounds mwaahh (!!) To me it's got something real horrid around 3-5khz, but not sure I can hear much above that these days ...eq helps but a bit crunchy!! Edited by ALt - 30 September 2020 at 8:46pm |
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smitske96
Young Croc Joined: 16 February 2016 Location: The Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 1092 |
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Why would you have coverage problems with a coaxil and not with a cd horn?
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studio45
Old Croc Joined: 16 October 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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The 250TC in a wedge is a great idea for low budget monitoring. With no tweeter to blow during the inevitable feedback accidents, they'll probably last years and years! Plus as you say the narrowed dispersion in the HF means the player on-axis gets good sound while avoiding likely feedback frequencies for mics off-axis.
One tip I would give you is if you have EQ on your monitor sends, pulling out a bit of 160 and 200Hz on all mixes will help to stop the build-up of low mids coming off the stage and muddying the FOH sound. Almost every wedge has nearly 360 dispersion at those frequencies, so it can really add up when all the mixes are going at once; and without HF to balance it, can give you intelligibility problems on-stage and off.
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Studio45 - Repairs & Building Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA
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fatfreddiescat
Young Croc Joined: 15 October 2010 Location: N.E.Wales Status: Offline Points: 1083 |
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With a little bit of EQ the Fane 12-250TC is stunning in the vocal range
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