Eighteensound 18NLW4000 |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | |||
vertx
Young Croc Joined: 14 March 2012 Location: Sydney Status: Offline Points: 578 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 08 June 2021 at 8:27am |
||
.
Edited by vertx - 01 June 2022 at 1:36pm |
|||
Peter Jan
Young Croc Joined: 16 December 2008 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||
One new speaker 6dB up compared to the old one, will still make for the same 6dB up with all 8 new speakers compared to the 8 old ones. |
|||
vertx
Young Croc Joined: 14 March 2012 Location: Sydney Status: Offline Points: 578 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
.
Edited by vertx - 01 June 2022 at 1:36pm |
|||
smitske96
Young Croc Joined: 16 February 2016 Location: The Netherlands Status: Online Points: 1092 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||
Note that doubling the amount of cone surface gives you 3dB extra, however total powerhandling doubles, which also gives you another 3dB extra. Thus a total of 6dB potentially when doubling drivers. |
|||
Peter Jan
Young Croc Joined: 16 December 2008 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
From 4 cabs to 8 cabs (+100% gear) -> +6dB. That equals 4 times louder overall. OR you only need 1/4th of the power and still go as loud as before. Going from 4 cabs to 6 cabs (+50% gear) -> + 3dB. That equals 2 times louder overall. OR you would only need half the power and it'll be as loud as before. Now going from PD186 to 18NLW4000 might seem like a good plan on paper. But both have somewhat comparable sensitivity figures, so in order to get that +6dB extra from a one on one swap, you need to feed about 4 times the power to get that +6dB out of them. In real life use, that's not going to happen, because the 18NLW4000 will run a lot more into powercompression than the PD186. The net result might be a meager 1 or 2 dB when all is said and done. Just adding 50% extra PD186 cabs ( and powering each speaker the same as before ) plain and simple adds a solid +3dB overall, without strsssing any speaker/amplifier more than before and is going to be a lot less costly, compared to replacing all speakers and seriously upping the required power to even get some SPL gain. Food for thought ... As always : your money, your gear, your decision |
|||
smitske96
Young Croc Joined: 16 February 2016 Location: The Netherlands Status: Online Points: 1092 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
@Peter Jan
I doubt the 18NLW4000 has that worse power compression figures. A driver like the NLW400 has probably the same amount of coil area and a much more advanced cooling. Let alone the possible SPL with transients would be enough for me. Good example of goinf from an old to a newer driver would be the SB218 vs SB28 from L'acoustics. Though the SB218 did not sound bad, the SB28 could/can replace two SB218's with a smaller VC driver. @tc You could also look at comparable ferrite magnet drivers. To name a few: 18TBW100, 18HW1070 etc.
|
|||
Peter Jan
Young Croc Joined: 16 December 2008 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
When in doubt ... the power compression graph tells you the story. -1dB @ 500W, -3,2dB @ 1000W and - 4,6dB @ 2000W. On a side note : I wonder why so few manufacturers provide those graphs
Fair enough if the cost, time and effort for only that works for you. Whether that or other gains for certain amounts of money, time and effort suits the OP ? That's why I said : "food for thought" and "your gear, your money, your d...."
That statement (initiated by L-Acoustics, I know...) is true by comparing the very, very first (~30 years old) SB218 (with LAB amps - Llc processors) versus the recent SB28 (with LA(X) amps - SB28 setting). The difference in attainable SPL doesn't come all that much from using more recent/better speakers, but rather from the circumstances in which they work (amplification/processing). Not saying better speakers aren't available these days, just putting things in perspective, that's all. As always... your mileage may vary |
|||
toastyghost
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10919 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
The real story will be in comparisons of the Bl(x) and L(X) curves for each driver… oddly enough, the small-signal T/S parameters are only a starting point for a design. That goes for the nominal sensitivity value, and all other free-air parameters too.
On the topic of high power, long term usage; the older PD drivers have an advantage of sorts when it comes to thermal compression due to the sheer bulk of the magnet, but I’d wager the NLW4000 remains better controlled and has improved ventilation when being driven with music. Of course, using an optimised port and Class D amplifier with the modern drivers would be another step in the right direction. Klippel data for the 18Sound should be available, if you ask nicely. Edited by toastyghost - 10 June 2021 at 2:26am |
|||
smitske96
Young Croc Joined: 16 February 2016 Location: The Netherlands Status: Online Points: 1092 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
@Peter Jan
The PD186 is from that same time IIRC. And something sticks with a topic a few years back where I saw the SB218 processing on a SB28 (they were almost identical). LA48 should still be no slouch against a LA8. I would recommend the TS to buy one of the newer drivers, and build a test cab and compare to the PD186. If in the position to do some measurements, there are many ways to get some real numbers. And in that case I am still very confident that the 18NLW4000 or comparable will come out on top.
|
|||
APC321
Young Croc Joined: 24 August 2013 Location: West Midlands Status: Offline Points: 684 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
The original poster said:
"One of the big factors in wanting to upgrade is the PD186 are getting a bit hot and flabby/higher impedance/power compression degraded towards the end of the night if we aren't onsite and DJs have smacking the limiter straight from open doors." Rather than spending thousands of pounds on new speaker drivers that you don't need, why not employ a sound engineer to manage the event for the night to "stop the DJ's smacking the limiters from open doors". If you think that the sound has been degraded by the end of the night, what about peoples hearing? If you run a sound system you should be in control...not a load of idiots (DJs???) who obviously havent got a clue. |
|||
vertx
Young Croc Joined: 14 March 2012 Location: Sydney Status: Offline Points: 578 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
.
Edited by vertx - 01 June 2022 at 1:35pm |
|||
toastyghost
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10919 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||
The Leveliza is great for keeping things to a perceived volume level. Still, it is not a limiter nor a true automatic gain control like the Drawmer SP2120, Formula Sound AVC2, Outline SPL Control Plus, etc.
Think of it more like someone riding the fader, based on the 'full-range level of the system you set: https://www.waves.com/plugins/vocal-rider#achieving-perfect-vocal-levels-with-vocal-rider Most importantly, it doesn't really track the bass. If someone kills the mids and highs of the mixer, then cranks the hell out of it, your subs will still be ramming into the limiter of your DSP. In the before times, we were one of the first adopters of the Leveliza and found them best on gigs to allow for single engineer stages to have relaxed changeovers, toilet breaks and the like. The prototype install version we had made with a tamper-proof cover instead of knobs did the same trick for a three-floor nightclub that has a single tech on site. No more wondering 'is upstairs being hooned?!' when you're stuck in the booth of the basement. You get the best results for an unattended playback install by using both of those types of toys together or coding your own in something that's open architecture like a BLU London or Xilica Solaro. I'd suggest you do that in steps anyway because it'll benefit new subs too if you make them. Port shape optimisation is the subject of lots of research lately. I shared some links to papers in another thread. Just guessing won't necessarily give better results than a straight slot, and could end up worse! It's also worth noting that Hornresp doesn't include nonlinear behaviour in the modelling as far as I'm aware. You'd want to use large-signal data like the Klippel vibration file for the driver in Akabak3 to see what happens at large signal levels. Or just cut some wood, and get some drivers and port shapes cut to audition. Sub measurements are a funny thing though, so if you're going down that route make sure you have a massive car park or field to hand. Ground-plane, nearest boundary 7m+ away, mic 10m from the average acoustic centre (not the grille!) of the cabinet. Edited by toastyghost - 11 June 2021 at 10:10am |
|||
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |