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Amplifier meet

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Sounds_d_b View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sounds_d_b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2009 at 10:05am
Originally posted by levyte357 levyte357 wrote:

Originally posted by Sounds_d_b Sounds_d_b wrote:

Originally posted by levyte357 levyte357 wrote:

Originally posted by Saul Saul wrote:

so why was the new X7 below a ukp2400 and a EP2500??? 

the 7 series have always been 3-4k amps, wouldn't one expect more? 

also the camco results are utterly dissapointing. 



Maybe some of the 5000VZ and CA18 bashing will stop now.




Perhaps the "SMPS cant do sub" diatribes will too LOL


I stopped doing that ages ago, after hearing Lab gruppens "fattened up" with parametrics..

Knew from 2 years ago, K10 is "the" lightweight amp. Just didn't know it was "that" strong.


That wasn't specifically aimed at you :)

I'm more impressed with the FFA and QSC' outputs actually increasing running pure sub.




Edited by Sounds_d_b - 03 September 2009 at 10:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jake_Fielder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2009 at 10:07am
Originally posted by Sounds_d_b Sounds_d_b wrote:

Originally posted by levyte357 levyte357 wrote:

Originally posted by Saul Saul wrote:

so why was the new X7 below a ukp2400 and a EP2500??? 

the 7 series have always been 3-4k amps, wouldn't one expect more? 

also the camco results are utterly dissapointing. 



Maybe some of the 5000VZ and CA18 bashing will stop now.




Perhaps the "SMPS cant do sub" diatribes will too LOL
 
Clap
 
Only just noticed the X7 on there, i would have looked nearer the top to try and find it!
 
I think the X series are slightly lower output than the V2 series anyway.
 
EDIT: im wrong, the X7 is actually more powerfull,
Althought the X8 is less powerfull at lower impedances
 
 


Edited by Jake_Fielder - 03 September 2009 at 10:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2009 at 10:08am
sorry for all the questions : 

was there not one of the bigger lab gruppens on the scene? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallmike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2009 at 10:09am

Would have been great to have a big Lab Gruppen at the meet - no one had one to bring!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2009 at 10:12am
Originally posted by tallmike tallmike wrote:

Would have been great to have a big Lab Gruppen at the meet - no one had one to bring!


LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Father-Francis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2009 at 10:15am
I stopped doing that ages ago, after hearing Lab gruppens "fattened up" with parametrics..

Knew from 2 years ago, K10 is "the" lightweight amp. Just didn't know it was "that" strong.


I used the powersoft amps 4years ago , at one time asked if anyone used them was told the were 2ndclass stuff , how much do we really know Tongue
The wisest mind has something yet to learn.
Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B.P.Sound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2009 at 10:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2009 at 10:52am

Ok, here’s my take on the day and what I felt happened.

 

First off, a massive thanks to Mike for putting on the event. Mikes a really nice guy and was the perfect host all day. It was so nice to meet so many really great people. In fact everyone was so nice that it’s kind of rekindled my faith in humanity. So thank you to everyone for doing that.

 

I went to the event with one question in mind and that was, can you replace the best heavy weight toroidal transformer amps with a lightweight switch mode amp and get the same performance. The conclusion I came to was.

 

It is possible to replace the best toroidal based amp with a light weight switch mode and get the same performance. The heavy vs lightweight amplifier argument can finally be put to rest and is now a debate that never needs to be discussed again in my books as I am completely satisfied with the performance from the top lightweight amps on test.

 

Can the lightweight switch mode amps compete with there heavy weight counterparts directly if you match output powers or price. No. But I think that’s missing the point. The fact remains that you can replace a 40kg amp with one that weighs 3 times less and get the same performance, albeit if the switch mode amp requires twice the output power as a toroidal based amp to achieve this.    

 

Many have thanked me for kind of running things at the event, but I don’t see that that happened. It was Mike who did most of the work and got people together to do all the testing, so thanks must go to him. I did not connect or set the amps up and didn’t control the CD player or processor settings, all I did was write down the SPL measurements and I made sure there was an independent person next to me to verify that the readings I wrote down were the ones that were displayed on the SPL meter. All the amps had the same crossover setting from an XTA processor and drove the same bass bins with the same cables. We even stood in the same position for each test and used the same part of music for each test. All that was changed was the output level from the processor that drove the amps and this was done so that each amp could be driven to a point just where clipping was visible on the amps clip inculcators or we heard the onset of clipping. In a real world situation that’s all you can ever do when setting up and amp, so I feel the test was fair. If some amps had clip indicators that did not indicate the onset of clipping correctly into the 2 ohm load we were driving then that’s the problem of the designer of that amp and they really should address the problem and not use it as an excuse as to why there amps did do so well in the test. If I’m out on the road with an amp all I have to go by is the metering on the front of the amp, if this is incorrect then it’s not an amp I would trust.    

 

Here’s what I though about some of the amps under test. There were so many I can’t remember them all and the ones that didn’t leave an impression on me aren’t worth writing about anyway.

 

I have to say I was impressed by the FFA 10. It kept up with all the top 4 amps in the test and I think had the loudest reading on the 34Hz test track of all the amps tested. I really thought that honour would have got to the Infinite 8 V2 as it was loudest on the other test track were used which had bass down to 38Hz, but was surprised when the FFA 10 just beat it. The limiters did give rise to a few comments and I could hear some audible pumping when the amp was driven hard.

 

The MC2 E90 was also very impressive and was right up there with the best. Very precise and with great cone control. It was slightly down in SPL when we tested it with the 34Hz test track compared with the FFA 10, Powersoft K10 or Infinite 8 V2, but knowing Duncan that will be put right very quickly.

 

Powersoft K10 was also in the running with the best of the test. I’m not sure it felt like it moved as much air low down as some of the other top amps on test, but there’s no doubt that it had very good control and speed. The clip indicators seemed very sensitive and when a clip light came on the output rose significantly and unpredictably, which left me feeling a bit nervous of it.

 

The loudest SPL shown from all the top 4 amps we tested was the Infinite 8 V2. Although the FFA 10 was 0.5dB louder on the 34Hz test track. The sound of the Infinite 8 V2 was not as fast as the switch mode amps and I feel it didn’t have quite as much control. This is difficult for me to say as I am the Infinite 8 V2’s designer and I wish it was one of the other amps in the test that did this to me, but the Infinite 8 V2 although only slightly louder than the other amps did start to knock the wind out of me. I was stood in the same position for all the tests, which was about 2 meters from the front of the bass stack and it got to the point where I had to ask Chris who was controlling the levels to turn it down as it was very uncomfortable and hard to breathe. The K10 got close to this happening at points but never pushed me over the edge. I was also looking at other people reactions during the test and the Infinite 8 V2 did make a few people have that ‘sh*t is the roof going to come down on my head’ look on there faces.   

 

So out of the top 4 amps there wasn’t really that much between them. Anyone using an FFA 10, an MC2 E90, a Powersoft K10 or if they have a strong enough back the Infinite V2 will all be getting very similar performance and the best I believe that is currently available. I would have liked to have heard the Powersoft K20, which I think would have probably taken top prize and also the bigger Lab Guppens. I’m also sure that a QSC PL9 would have given all the top 4 amps a good run for there money and might have even come out top.

 

The next level down saw amps that were producing around 135dB from the 8 bass bins. The most impressive of these was the QSC PL380. It didn’t miss a beat all day and got used for some later testing of other speakers as most liked the amp a lot. A big surprise for me was the Crown 5000VZ which was only a couple of dB down from the top 4 amps. That amp can still hold its own. The Yamaha T5n was also a wolf in sheep’s clothing too. And whilst not in my top 4 did sound really good. The EV P3000 was also a surprise for me. It wasn’t that loud but made the air move in a really nice way.   

 

Biggest surprise of the whole day was that a budget Berry 2500 amp could drive the 8 bins and produce more SPL than some of the other more highly regarded amps. I’m not sure that it could do this all day long and would last for long, but it did do it all the same.

 

Thanks again for an amazing day. I learnt so much and met a few genuine geniuses. I have to take my hat off to Dave M for the FFA 10 and to Duncan for the MC2 E90. The amps you designed are truly amazing bits or work.    

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2009 at 11:09am
Originally posted by levyte357 levyte357 wrote:

Maybe some of the 5000VZ and CA18 bashing will stop now.
 
Wish you were there Lev.
 
The 5000VZ was good, but I thought the CA18 was very weak. It left no impression on me and I really thought it would have been better.
 
The Crest P8001 was even worse which was a big surprise to me. It just seemed to have no guts like the CA18. I would have loved to have heard a P9001 as thats more in the league of the Crown 5000VZ.
 
There was jusy over 2dB between the 5000VZ and the Infinite 8 V2, but that was a 2db you could really hear and feel, with the 5000VZ being heavy sounding but comfortable and the Infinite 8 V2 getting uncomfortable and threatening. 


Edited by Rog Mogale - 03 September 2009 at 11:13am
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minaximal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minaximal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2009 at 11:09am
sounds like a really good and interesting day, shame i couldn't make it!

i was also under the impression the e90 couldn't have its limiters defeated by end user as discussed in the old long blue room thread?

i wonder where the e45 would have ended up also?

well done guys..




Edited by minaximal - 03 September 2009 at 11:11am
Subs + Barges = :)

www.metaacoustics.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Average Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2009 at 11:10am
A fair and honest review of the day in my opinion, which is probably a bigger shock than the Berry to be honest.
One of the chaps with me on the day has not only got a very good ear (ex hawkwind sound engineer) but is also a highly regarded PR consultant. His comment to me was 'Rog is a very good salesman for his own products isn't he ?' which did sort of put me on the back foot a bit, now, having read this review of the day, I feel very differently about the whole event.
Once again, thankyou for your input on the day and clearcut and subjective criticism/commentry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonnyhonda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2009 at 11:12am
Probably the best post I've seen on speakerplans, thankyou Mr Rog;
 
and of course Mr Mike and all others who contributed, good effort so soon after carnival!
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