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measured:lab 13000 vs proline 3000

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levyte357 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2011 at 11:47am
Originally posted by airbell airbell wrote:

for your tests, please dont forget it depends a lot about the music you are playing!!


Oh yeah... LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote audiomik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2011 at 11:57am
Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:

Re: "Without constant monitoring or careful use of voltage limiters it is easy for the amp to pole pate the drivers."

Am of the opinion that voltage limiting isn't the answer since the current can be doing some 'nasty' things long before any voltage limiting occurs.

A pic of a 'scope image showing a nice clean output voltage from an amplifier with a very distorted current waveform at the same time (Center trace) when driving a 'Speaker:


Now with a good set of results for the real load the 'Speaker presents to an Amplifier; then this sort of thing can be predicted.

A bit divergent from the OP for this thread but nevertheless relevant to where the discussion has moved to.
Mik



think it might be good if I better explain what is happening in the test above.

The Current waveform is not limited in any way by the Amplifier since this would also appear on the Voltage waveform.

The Current distortion is a direct result of the non-linear impedance of the test 'Speaker's voice coil as it moves within the magnet gap.

Now with these effects happening and being different for each 'Speaker/Cab combination; then they will occur at different Voltage drive levels and in different forms and thus be 'handled' differently by different Amplifiers.

Amplifier Power Supplies: so long as they 'hold up' to provide the Output Voltage and Current demanded by the load aren't the main issue here - the ability of the Amplifier design itself to well manage these non-linear loads is more the issue!

So having a good set of parameters for what load is being presented to the Amplifier is very useful in designing the Amplifier in the first place
Otherwise it is to a certain extent guesswork and why some Amplifiers of similar specifications perform differently to others under the same conditions......

As to Voltage limiting - OK as a device of 'last resort' when set sensibly - but a good pair of ears are definitely best!

Mik
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2011 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by airbell airbell wrote:

for your tests, please dont forget it depends a lot about the music you are playing!!
as i wrote at the beginning, on the picture you can see i powered 16 12" ciare horn speakers with 1 lab gruppen 13000 for real world testing, what is far too less actually, but when i played some rock tracks with a real short and punchy bassdrum it was unbelievable how much it kicked and hard to get the power average limiter on.

This is what many always seem to overlook. “Punch” notes are pulses which equate to bursts. Given the Lab Gruppen (among other modern day amplifiers) are designed to offer more power under burst conditions than continuous average, tracks that are dominant with short attacks is what the amplifier will shine on. This is the reason why the performance under sinusoidal waves is always mediocre. It is a steady state.

 

Another thing that is always overlooked is the Impedance versus Frequency curve of the loudspeaker/enclosure correlation at the given frequency. It really doesn’t matter how many loudspeakers, brand and/or size of the driver used. What matters is where the loudspeaker stands from an impedance standpoint, in the enclosure at the given frequency when, driven using music material. 

 

The Powersoft K Series, Crown I Tech Series and even the old Macrotech 5000/02 vz offers some type of impedance status indicators to inform the user where the loudspeaker(s) impedance lies under the given conditions.

 

Best Regards,




Edited by Elliot Thompson - 31 December 2011 at 12:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2011 at 1:37pm
All this got me thinking so i took a volt meter and measured the voltage of our biggest amp.
So connected to a double 18 sub playing 70Hz right to the point of clip lights tinkering. Measured 147V :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Builder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2011 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by andyamp andyamp wrote:

Now we have free trade.
Yes Andy, I can see how thats a bit one sided.
Perhaps my terminology was a litle wrong.
"One sided trade biased towards a communist dictatorship that pays its workers low wages and constantly downgrades its own worth to keep its self in the position of manufacturing might"
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cilla.scope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2011 at 1:56pm
Heh :)

It will be very interesting to see how the whole China situation plays out.  They had been under pressure to let the value of the currency rise, but mainly from America .. and I don think the US has much influence over China as they need loans ...

What people need to remember is this:  China does not buy from Europe, but Europe buys from China.  Every time you buy Chinese made kit, a small part of the UK now bleongs to China, inch by inch ( or even cm by cm ;) ) It may not be obvious, and the financial routes may be complex, but without bilateral trade,  we are simply swapping the country out, but by bit.

What we need is relatively balanced trade, as a net importer we are simply selling the country off in exchange for short-lived goods. The Chinese will own that bit of land forever, long after the plastic tat has gone to the dump.

Even if they don't directly purchase land, but instead make loans back to us, that too has its price.

You just watch what happens when China makes a move on Taiwan ... I'll put money that a small note about loan repayments is made to Obama .. and the US will "decide not to get involved".   With presedential elections in Taiwan withing two weeks and the DPP candidate (Tsai Ing-wen) looking strong .. it could be sooner than you think.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote audiomik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2011 at 2:00pm
Just to add that the UK and Eurozone also have very little influence on China's Government set Exchange rates for the same reasons.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nitz V1505 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2011 at 2:41pm
Thats because they have been buying British and US goverments bonds for age's and now essentially own them. Funny how world power goes round in cycles over many millennia. On that note Id like to wish everyone a happy new year!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Father-Francis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2011 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by cilla.scope cilla.scope wrote:

Heh :)

It will be very interesting to see how the whole China situation plays out.  They had been under pressure to let the value of the currency rise, but mainly from America .. and I don think the US has much influence over China as they need loans ...

What people need to remember is this:  China does not buy from Europe, but Europe buys from China.  Every time you buy Chinese made kit, a small part of the UK now bleongs to China, inch by inch ( or even cm by cm ;) ) It may not be obvious, and the financial routes may be complex, but without bilateral trade,  we are simply swapping the country out, but by bit.

What we need is relatively balanced trade, as a net importer we are simply selling the country off in exchange for short-lived goods. The Chinese will own that bit of land forever, long after the plastic tat has gone to the dump.

Even if they don't directly purchase land, but instead make loans back to us, that too has its price.

You just watch what happens when China makes a move on Taiwan ... I'll put money that a small note about loan repayments is made to Obama .. and the US will "decide not to get involved".   With presedential elections in Taiwan withing two weeks and the DPP candidate (Tsai Ing-wen) looking strong .. it could be sooner than you think.



http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/uk-flag-05.gif[/img][/url] http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/suede-flag-77.gif[/img][/url] That´s the way to go Cilla , buying cheap stuff and then in the end you don´t have nobody to play cause peeps are out of jobs, the only thing China buys is pig feet and ears and lots of  black market horns from africa , support your local dealer ,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2011 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Nitz V1505 Nitz V1505 wrote:

Thats because they have been buying British and US goverments bonds for age's and now essentially own them. Funny how world power goes round in cycles over many millennia. On that note Id like to wish everyone a happy new year!!!!!!!


http://www.businessinsider.com/who-owns-us-debt-2011-7#china-15
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-gigantic-chinese-trade-deficit-which-nobody-knows-exists-2011-6

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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2011 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

All this got me thinking so i took a volt meter and measured the voltage of our biggest amp.
So connected to a double 18 sub playing 70Hz right to the point of clip lights tinkering. Measured 147V :-)


What amplifier are you using that offers 147 volts @ 4 ohms?


Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbl_man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 8:47am
OK,i have cleaned this thread up a bit.

Now i want to make this clear...Stick to the facts.

Choose your words respectfully and carefully Gentlemen.

The first person,(and i dont care who it is,even if you are using a pseudonym) who makes any personal remarks about another member is going to get barred.


Be seeing you.
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