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measured:lab 13000 vs proline 3000

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote audiomik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 2:04pm
Marjan

I think that the more information we can gather about what 'Speakers actually present to Amplifiers as loads in 'real life' then the more likely we should be able to predict Amplifier performance.

if you don't have a current probe, a simple means of measuring the current into the 'Speaker is to use a low value power resistor in series and then measure the voltage across it.

Here I use 0.05 Ohms made up of 10 0.51 ohm 2.5watt resistors wired in parallel (with another resistor paralleled to get to the 0.05 ohms) but a single metal-clad of known small resistance will work just as well; just a different set of numbers to insert into 'Ohm's Law' formulas.
From the V and I measurements we have the 'speaker's impedance at a given test frequency plus the VA value.


For much more detail on test methods and some results,
this thread.

OK, the specialist test instruments I've been using for Phase measurement aren't necessarily required to obtain valid results and there is a description of how to measure phase differences using a 2 channel oscilloscope plug-in from tektronix - with the same methods able to be used for any 2 channel 'Scope - on page 2-6 of this manual:
TEK 7A18

hope this assists and look forward to some results
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:

Marjan

I think that the more information we can gather about what 'Speakers actually present to Amplifiers as loads in 'real life' then the more likely we should be able to predict Amplifier performance.


The advantage of "voltage/current" measurements using Marjan's scheme, is the reactive component in the impedance. Embarrassed

EDIT:Purely resistive load, doesn't  reflect real life battle, between good and evil, the amplifier is constantly fighting. LOL


Edited by levyte357 - 01 January 2012 at 2:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 2:08pm
i dont have an oscilloscope :-(.

Ill try the impedance measurement when i have more time.

Thing is that i am getting results using a specific amp/driver/box combo. But i dont think that results will be much more different with using a different box/speaker combo.


Edited by MarjanM - 01 January 2012 at 2:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote audiomik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 2:47pm
Lev
Re: "Purely resistive load, doesn't reflect real life battle, between good and evil, the amplifier is constantly fighting."

well this is the core of what I'm trying to get to!
To try and resolve this better then we need to know the extents of the 'battlefield'

here are some test results for a Phonics MAR6 Amplifier (about half way down the linked page below) which 'failed miserably' compared with a C-Audio RA series Amp (and others) when presented with the same reactive load:
Amplifier Damping Factor Thread - page 3

Now a bit of an extreeem test, but it still shows up very well what different Amplifiers are capable of compared with others.

Anyway, so we don't leave the OP's report completely behind it would be interesting to see the same tests for those 2 Amplifiers when they are presented with an Inductive Load?

Marjan
OK, the impedance values will be interesting in themselves, the part we won't know is the 'real' power going to the 'Speaker.
Changing the Box and or Tuning will directly affect the impedance curve as the cone is then loaded differently

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:


Anyway, so we don't leave the OP's report completely behind it would be interesting to see the same tests for those 2 Amplifiers when they are presented with an Inductive Load?


Would expect the Proline 3000 to perform admirably, in a 4 ohm bridge, reactive load, 40hz bench test.

I have the circuit diagrams, so we can safely identify, the inrush circuitry. Wink

DJ Leco, has already posted regarding uprating inrush handling components, to avoid common issues in this area.


Edited by levyte357 - 01 January 2012 at 3:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:

Lev
Re: "Purely resistive load, doesn't reflect real life battle, between good and evil, the amplifier is constantly fighting."

well this is the core of what I'm trying to get to!
To try and resolve this better then we need to know the extents of the 'battlefield'

here are some test results for a Phonics MAR6 Amplifier (about half way down the linked page below) which 'failed miserably' compared with a C-Audio RA series Amp (and others) when presented with the same reactive load:
Amplifier Damping Factor Thread - page 3

Now a bit of an extreeem test, but it still shows up very well what different Amplifiers are capable of compared with others.

Anyway, so we don't leave the OP's report completely behind it would be interesting to see the same tests for those 2 Amplifiers when they are presented with an Inductive Load?

Marjan
OK, the impedance values will be interesting in themselves, the part we won't know is the 'real' power going to the 'Speaker.
Changing the Box and or Tuning will directly affect the impedance curve as the cone is then loaded differently


Mik

I wasnt talking about changing the box or driver. More that in a way that any amp will behave a bit differently with some other box, now that wont be too much. At the end, a 2KW amp is a 2KW amp. Impedance variation will be different on other boxes but still at average not too much difference.

As for the real power going to the speakers, that i would like to find out somehow too. Any suggestions on not too complicated way? Like measuring the amps and voltage at the same time maybe?

A NOTE: This amps are just developed for us, i have manufacturers data but i would like to know for real what is going on before we release them to the public. The last 2 months they survived all torture test i have thrown to them, i was more worried about the drivers then the amps.
I wasnt doing any silly 1 ohm loading or such unreasonable things if one wanders.


Edited by MarjanM - 01 January 2012 at 3:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Ah.. lol. Well stock 18NLW9600 should not be far from ours.


So it seems that impedance starts rising at around 55Hz and it is in the 8 ohm region at 70Hz. 


Hi.


Bear in mind how the speaker reacts in free air and in an enclosure are two different things. 

It appears the amplifier you are using is fairly new for the website does not offer any information other than "coming soon."

Best Regards, 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:04pm



Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:

Elliot

happy new year to you

take your point about about not liking to stress Amplifiers with low load impedances - I'm still of the opinion that the best way to use them is 'one channel for one 'Speaker' which may be old fashioned but is ultimately much more reliable and has the built in system redundancy we all need at times

Mik


Two speakers per channel with an impedance dip of both speakers that does not sway below 3.4 ohms is my preference. 

I've conducted many tests throughout the years and, I cannot find any benefits putting an amplifier in such a position (2 ohms per channel) other than budget constraints. Even that can be over-ridden if one would have more patience and save. That too is an old fashioned method that is clearly forgotten these days.

 

Best Regards,


 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:05pm
Elliot, amps are new yes and just getting out of production. No official data yet because we are waiting for some more testings of the reliability. Thus the torture period on them right now.
What i am founding is that they are quite conservatively rated (was quite surprised by the 147 to be honest) so need to confirm now all that with the OEM manufacturer.
I will try to do some more testings on my own, but i am not really in to amp design and have to find a way to determine what they can really do.
They are rated at 3400W per channel at 4 ohms. How ever, when A/B testing against my GPS3400 that is also rated 3400W bridged at 4 ohms, the new amp is quite louder. 
The GPS is getting me a 104V at 4 ohms bridged just at clipp.


Edited by MarjanM - 01 January 2012 at 4:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Two speakers per channel with an impedance dip of both speakers that does not sway below 3.4 ohms is my preference.

Clap

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

I've conducted many tests throughout the years and, I cannot find any benefits putting an amplifier in such a position (2 ohms per channel) other than budget constraints. Even that can be over-ridden if one would have more patience and save. That too is an old fashioned method that is clearly forgotten these days.

+1

Loved the sound of my 2x proto cabs on Christmas eve, running power amp at 8 ohm per channel, each cab fed via individual 4mm2 cable pairs.Embarrassed


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tweeter box Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by airbell airbell wrote:

Hello,

i wanted to share some interesting measurements
a colleague and me did yesterday.
we used a konstantan-wire to simulate 2x4ohm resistors.
it keeps pretty well its resistance constant even at high temperatures,
and we cooled it with oil.
we measured only sinus, coz we are sure the lab does its 13000watt burst,
also the pc the oscilloscope was connected with was too slow to follow.

we measured 30hz, 50hz, 1khz and 16khz.
results for 50hz were

proline:          2x1850watt sinus @ 4ohm
lab gruppen:  2x1764watt sinus @ 4ohm (after ~1second)


now the interesting part:
power consumption:

proline 3000: 5000watt, 6500VA

lab gruppen 13000: 4000watt, 6000VA

peaks of power consumption were higher, but we measured just before clipping.
at the end the fuse of the proline came and the power switch at the front panel
has broken.
even if both amps had limiters, it was possible to get a very unnice looking
curve without hitting the input level too high.

this measurements are no 100%precise laboratory results,
but we tried hard to get as good results as possible.


now i was wondering a lot about the power consumption...
if you caltulate with the effective power (watts)
it all makes sense, the proline has a good efficience of
2x1850watt / 5000watt =0,74 =74%
and the lab gruppen
2x1764watt / 4000watt =0,882 = 88,2%.

but actually, if you consider how much you can get out of
an 16a fuse or a generator, you have always
to calculate with the appearing power (VA).

VA of both amps was almost the same.
and thats what suprised me a lot.

no question the lab gruppen wins in generel, less weight,
more peak power, so will do actually in any case louder than
the proline, but if its about powerconsumption in VA
they are almost the same for the same output,
and i would have never expect that.

best regards


ClapClap

but what about the price comparison? Embarrassed

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Elliot, amps are new yes and just getting out of production. No official data yet because we are waiting for some more testings of the reliability. Thus the torture period on them right now.
What i am founding is that they are quite conservatively rated (was quite surprised by the 147 to be honest) so need to confirm now all that with the OEM manufacturer.
I will try to do some more testings on my own, but i am not really in to amp design and have to find a way to determine what they can really do.
They are rated at 3400W per channel at 4 ohms. How ever, when A/B testing against my GPS3400 that is also rated 3400W bridged at 4 ohms, the new amp is quite louder. 
The GPS is getting me a 104V at 4 ohms bridged just at clipp.

Due to the GPS 3400 operating at its limits (4-ohm Bridged Mono), it no longer has any headroom. If the Bold Audio BAP20 is two ohms stable in stereo mode, the amplifier will still have headroom for it is driving a four ohm load not, two.

The 104 volt rating may be due to the fluctuations of the impedance of the loudspeakers so, the amplifier is limiting itself due to the power supply.

One thing I might add is the Bode Audio BAP 20 may have offered the 147-volt rating due to “one channel driven.” if it does not offer discrete circuitry. The Lab Gruppen FP 14000 specifications sheet states in can/will deliver more wattage if a single channel is driven. From what I gathered the Bode Audio BAP 20 is an 8000-watt amplifier so, anything is possible.

Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
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