measured:lab 13000 vs proline 3000 |
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audiomik
Old Croc Joined: 06 April 2010 Location: Bath, UK Status: Offline Points: 2962 |
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Marjan
I think that the more information we can gather about what 'Speakers actually present to Amplifiers as loads in 'real life' then the more likely we should be able to predict Amplifier performance. if you don't have a current probe, a simple means of measuring the current into the 'Speaker is to use a low value power resistor in series and then measure the voltage across it. Here I use 0.05 Ohms made up of 10 0.51 ohm 2.5watt resistors wired in parallel (with another resistor paralleled to get to the 0.05 ohms) but a single metal-clad of known small resistance will work just as well; just a different set of numbers to insert into 'Ohm's Law' formulas. From the V and I measurements we have the 'speaker's impedance at a given test frequency plus the VA value. For much more detail on test methods and some results, this thread. OK, the specialist test instruments I've been using for Phase measurement aren't necessarily required to obtain valid results and there is a description of how to measure phase differences using a 2 channel oscilloscope plug-in from tektronix - with the same methods able to be used for any 2 channel 'Scope - on page 2-6 of this manual: TEK 7A18 hope this assists and look forward to some results Mik |
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levyte357
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 10 May 2004 Location: UK, London Status: Offline Points: 11743 |
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The advantage of "voltage/current" measurements using Marjan's scheme, is the reactive component in the impedance. EDIT:Purely resistive load, doesn't reflect real life battle, between good and evil, the amplifier is constantly fighting. Edited by levyte357 - 01 January 2012 at 2:11pm |
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"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".
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MarjanM
Old Croc Joined: 10 February 2005 Location: Macedonia Status: Offline Points: 7810 |
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i dont have an oscilloscope :-(.
Ill try the impedance measurement when i have more time. Thing is that i am getting results using a specific amp/driver/box combo. But i dont think that results will be much more different with using a different box/speaker combo.
Edited by MarjanM - 01 January 2012 at 2:13pm |
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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
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audiomik
Old Croc Joined: 06 April 2010 Location: Bath, UK Status: Offline Points: 2962 |
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Lev
Re: "Purely resistive load, doesn't reflect real life battle, between good and evil, the amplifier is constantly fighting." well this is the core of what I'm trying to get to! To try and resolve this better then we need to know the extents of the 'battlefield' here are some test results for a Phonics MAR6 Amplifier (about half way down the linked page below) which 'failed miserably' compared with a C-Audio RA series Amp (and others) when presented with the same reactive load: Amplifier Damping Factor Thread - page 3 Now a bit of an extreeem test, but it still shows up very well what different Amplifiers are capable of compared with others. Anyway, so we don't leave the OP's report completely behind it would be interesting to see the same tests for those 2 Amplifiers when they are presented with an Inductive Load? Marjan OK, the impedance values will be interesting in themselves, the part we won't know is the 'real' power going to the 'Speaker. Changing the Box and or Tuning will directly affect the impedance curve as the cone is then loaded differently Mik |
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levyte357
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 10 May 2004 Location: UK, London Status: Offline Points: 11743 |
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Would expect the Proline 3000 to perform admirably, in a 4 ohm bridge, reactive load, 40hz bench test. I have the circuit diagrams, so we can safely identify, the inrush circuitry. DJ Leco, has already posted regarding uprating inrush handling components, to avoid common issues in this area. Edited by levyte357 - 01 January 2012 at 3:00pm |
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MarjanM
Old Croc Joined: 10 February 2005 Location: Macedonia Status: Offline Points: 7810 |
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I wasnt talking about changing the box or driver. More that in a way that any amp will behave a bit differently with some other box, now that wont be too much. At the end, a 2KW amp is a 2KW amp. Impedance variation will be different on other boxes but still at average not too much difference. As for the real power going to the speakers, that i would like to find out somehow too. Any suggestions on not too complicated way? Like measuring the amps and voltage at the same time maybe? A NOTE: This amps are just developed for us, i have manufacturers data but i would like to know for real what is going on before we release them to the public. The last 2 months they survived all torture test i have thrown to them, i was more worried about the drivers then the amps. I wasnt doing any silly 1 ohm loading or such unreasonable things if one wanders.
Edited by MarjanM - 01 January 2012 at 3:13pm |
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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
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Elliot Thompson
Old Croc Joined: 02 April 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5172 |
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Hi. Bear in mind how the speaker reacts in free air and in an enclosure are two different things. It appears the amplifier you are using is fairly new for the website does not offer any information other than "coming soon." Best Regards, |
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Elliot Thompson
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Elliot Thompson
Old Croc Joined: 02 April 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5172 |
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Two speakers per channel with an impedance dip of both speakers that does not sway below 3.4 ohms is my preference. I've conducted many tests throughout the years and, I cannot find any benefits putting an amplifier in such a position (2 ohms per channel) other than budget constraints. Even that can be over-ridden if one would have more patience and save. That too is an old fashioned method that is clearly forgotten these days. Best Regards,
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Elliot Thompson
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MarjanM
Old Croc Joined: 10 February 2005 Location: Macedonia Status: Offline Points: 7810 |
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Elliot, amps are new yes and just getting out of production. No official data yet because we are waiting for some more testings of the reliability. Thus the torture period on them right now.
What i am founding is that they are quite conservatively rated (was quite surprised by the 147 to be honest) so need to confirm now all that with the OEM manufacturer. I will try to do some more testings on my own, but i am not really in to amp design and have to find a way to determine what they can really do. They are rated at 3400W per channel at 4 ohms. How ever, when A/B testing against my GPS3400 that is also rated 3400W bridged at 4 ohms, the new amp is quite louder. The GPS is getting me a 104V at 4 ohms bridged just at clipp.
Edited by MarjanM - 01 January 2012 at 4:08pm |
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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
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levyte357
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 10 May 2004 Location: UK, London Status: Offline Points: 11743 |
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+1 Loved the sound of my 2x proto cabs on Christmas eve, running power amp at 8 ohm per channel, each cab fed via individual 4mm2 cable pairs. |
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"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".
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tweeter box
Old Croc Joined: 21 October 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 6784 |
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but what about the price comparison? |
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Elliot Thompson
Old Croc Joined: 02 April 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5172 |
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Due to the GPS 3400 operating at its limits (4-ohm Bridged Mono), it no longer has any headroom. If the Bold Audio BAP20 is two ohms stable in stereo mode, the amplifier will still have headroom for it is driving a four ohm load not, two. The 104 volt rating may be due to the fluctuations of the impedance of the loudspeakers so, the amplifier is limiting itself due to the power supply. One thing I might add is the Bode Audio BAP 20 may have offered the 147-volt rating due to “one channel driven.” if it does not offer discrete circuitry. The Lab Gruppen FP 14000 specifications sheet states in can/will deliver more wattage if a single channel is driven. From what I gathered the Bode Audio BAP 20 is an 8000-watt amplifier so, anything is possible. Best Regards, |
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Elliot Thompson
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