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Unity horn build

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grec View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2013 at 9:03am
Probably that's why I have way better HF when I move 1-or even 2 meters a side then when I sit in a front of speaker.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2013 at 10:33pm
Steve, read the keele paper a few weeks ago. any idea how quickly fingering starts to appear as you make the mouth flare less than a 1/3. I was thinking of trying to get away with the last 1/5th - not least because it makes mounting the woofers a lot easier.

I'm thinking it might be possible to have a smaller mouth with compromised horizontal dispersion that has some 'fingering' from a single box but when you array it the fingers of the neighboring boxes could be made to lie at different angles thus smoothing the polar response of the array. anyone tried this?


Edited by snowflake - 22 March 2013 at 10:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve_B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 March 2013 at 3:57pm
The idea of the increased flare at the mouth is to reduce edge diffraction. Ideally the mouth termination would be curved but that is tricky with large ply horns. The hi-fi horn designers, where large round overs are less impractical suggest that ideally the radius of the mouth termination should be equal to one wavelength of the lowest frequency. Others consider that a radius of ¼ wavelength is OK. One would expect that the mouth geometry would affect the lower and mid-band of the horn more than the higher frequencies.

The differences in the high band can be due to the different degree of coherence presented by the wave front at the compression driver’s exit. This depends on how the phase plug geometry has been optimised.

At very high frequencies a high-frequency driver can change its radiating figure quickly depending on frequency. It is possible for it to change from a plane wave, to a ring radiator or to a point source whose effective dimension is smaller than the throat. These changes are reflected in the wave front curvature, which can lead to driver>throat mismatching, and can be a source of internal diffraction and distortion as well. Changing the drive unit could significantly alter the amount of fingering a given horn exhibits.

If you set up a grid across the mouth of the horn and measure the pressure in each cell, the pressure variations show up like the room mode patterns, with high and low pressure regions that change with frequency.

Keith Holland (Southampton Uni) did some work on obstructions within the horn and if I remember correctly something on the left hand wall creates an artefact on the right hand side. With a unity style horn the mid apertures will be a source of problems.

As with most design problems, it is a case of deciding which features and compromises best fit your priorities.

I would imagine that an array of unity horns would behave in a similar manner to a multicellular horn. It would be expected therefore that there will be a narrow lobe at the frequency where the width of the array is about one wavelength. Above that the pattern will widen and at high frequencies there will be some fingering

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 March 2013 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

Originally posted by Steve_B Steve_B wrote:

Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

seems i'm suffering from something called high frequency fingering Shocked due to incorrect horn termination Big smile

Do you have any polar or on/off axis plots? I'm just curious how bad it is.

haven't got any plots but if i remember correctly was about 4dB dip about half an octave wide centred on 3.5kHz. clearly audible as you move from on-axis to off-axis. think I'm going to do a new prototype with bigger mouth and 60V*45H dispersion.

Can you measure this so we can see where the dip exactly is? I might have an answer to this but i will have to see the graph first to be sure i am not talking stupid things.
Marjan Milosevic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve_B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2013 at 12:40pm
Just because your suggestion might not be the correct one in this specific case does not mean that it is stupid (unless it is just stupid generally LOL). Diagnostics at a distance is always a bit hit and miss. Please share, it might be of use to other forum members.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2013 at 12:45pm
Ok. The BMS4550 that danley use has a natural bump at 3Khz, so maybe they dont tame it as we do, and the result is a flatter line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2013 at 5:30pm
steve, been reading this page about mouth termination

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/waveguides1.htm#intro

bit confused - the above says that when you add the flare the coverage angle becomes the average of the two wall angles. in keele's paper it doesn't mention this and the diagrams on page 20 and measurements on p23 suggest that the coverage angle is determined by the angle of the initial section and is not increased by the greater wall angle at the mouth.

I lose track of the maths in the link above. about half way down after the big pencil symbol the text starts refering to angles a and b which do not appear in any of the formulas Confused

I tried blocking off the mid holes on my horn with tape. there was a slight improvement in the HF response with the width of the dip decreasing slightly (1.5dB boost at 5kHz) but the minimum SPL at 3.5kHZ was not improved. this suggested to me that there was a second effect over-layed on top of the mid-holes effect. I think others may have found more problem with their mid holes as mine are relatively far from the horn throat.

taping some material around the horn mouth both increased the SPL at 3.5kHZ by about 1.5dB and reduced the peak at 7kHz by 1dB giving a flatter overall response. I think I read somewhere that adding soft material at the mouth edges has a similar effect to adding a curved mouth flare. I will try doing this again with better materials than the socks and gaffer tape I had to hand Big smile anyone have ideas on what thickness and width of material to try for optimal results?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2013 at 1:10am
Id go with a rolled up towel, makes quite a big difference.
The initial flare angle will dictate HF dispersion, the combination of the 2 flare angles will dictate dispersion further down.  A HF wave can see a CD horn like 2 horns in series, depending on the abruptness of the change in flare rate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _djk_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2013 at 2:25pm
Clifford A Hendricksen "The Manta-Ray Horns" (co-authored with Mark Ureda), Journal of the AES, vol 26 no. 9, September 1978.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _djk_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2013 at 2:41pm

The inner angle controls the HF dispersion.

The angle increases by 50% at 2/3rds the width (or height) of the mouth. IE: a H60° horn 30" wide increases to H90° at the point it is 20" wide.

The original article at the JAES costs $20 for non-members, $5 for members. It is also in the JAES Loudspeakers Anthology Vol. 1 (448 pages), $40 for non-members, $30 for members. Try a university library if you have one nearby.

I will update this post with the formulas for dispersion and size after I get some sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2013 at 4:31pm
thanks DJK, managed to download the manta-ray paper as well as a couple of other interesting looking ones that reference it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2013 at 8:13pm
going to change the throat in next prototype to include a smooth radius joining the angle of the compression driver exit to the horn wall angle. this adds about half an inch to the horn length. this could conceivably be one of the factors producing a hole in the response at 3.5kHz and should also help reduce harmonic distortion.
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