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21'' HOG SCOOP desing help

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nickyburnell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 November 2016 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

Its not degrading you're the one who said its a hybrid lol i'd just like to know what to cabs its a hybrid of as i never realised.


Where did I say it was a hybrid?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote luton_soundman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 November 2016 at 6:49pm

[/QUOTE]
 
Clap, agree here Nick, it's all down to tuning and taste; I prefer to use a few more bass cabs than some and play them within their range instead of thrashing them. Hogs are hybrids and like Nick's said, should not be compared to scoops.

[/QUOTE]
My bad it was ape who said it. Apologies
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 November 2016 at 9:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tv00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2016 at 10:52am
Scoop discussions, LOL!

I'd say both are kind of hybrids as they have a combined response from horn & cone.
Hogs can also be modelled as tapped horns.
Scoops can be made "hog tapped horns" if placed in v-formation or at an angle up against a wall, this extends lowend considerably, but no one one here seems to care much about that magic. But I'm happy to see a lot of people started playing around with mouth extensions. V-formation don't really need no plates if it's tall enough
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TOM_50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 February 2017 at 4:17pm
I'd like to make something similar. Did you get good result?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LeruSound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2018 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by tv00 tv00 wrote:

Scoop discussions, LOL!

I'd say both are kind of hybrids as they have a combined response from horn & cone.
Hogs can also be modelled as tapped horns.
Scoops can be made "hog tapped horns" if placed in v-formation or at an angle up against a wall, this extends lowend considerably, but no one one here seems to care much about that magic. But I'm happy to see a lot of people started playing around with mouth extensions. V-formation don't really need no plates if it's tall enough
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I totally agree with you. Hogs scoops sound really different to a conventional scoop..
Considering there's a lot happening in the firsts 3 meters in pressure fronts. We can also say that hog scoop is "bigh mouth kinda tapped horn", not that closed to a conv scoops.. I really listened lot of scoops and hogs, ran from both good and poor soun-op... I really cant see the point of this much critics on hogs scoops, them are a very good overall design (5 pages in this topic just about hog), always been a little subbier than scoops. Front radiation is compromised in hog:
low bass fwd emission (for what the fwd loading is capable) summed to horn emission, is giving good sensitivity & throw, cutting out lot of shape, but gaining lot of bass body.


Edited by LeruSound - 19 January 2018 at 8:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turbo7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2018 at 1:00am
I would like to see a 21" transmission line style scoopS1=1400 S3=4200 exp=2,23m, 70 liter chamber, should be really hifi sounding and very round sound - the energy splits into a wide bandwith of frequency not of amplitude peaks !  Much more what i consider of when chosing a design. Its low sensivity but broad bandwith, and 21" never sound weak in general :-) Check Dandelion sound subbass out for inspiration ! The best way of loading a 21" scoop/transmissionline imo. Real strenght is bandwith in this case.

In theory, the 21" scoop with pd2150 is a very weak design ! Much too big for the spl it produces. Here in grey is a stack of 4 pd2150 scoops.

Black line represents 2x 2x18"  Bandpass subs with just 358L per unit, with the 18DS115.

4 drivers vs 4 drivers ! 18" vs 21"....

that is 2230 Liters ( grey ) vs. 716 Liters ( Black ) !







Here is 4x 18DS115 scoops in black vs. 4xPD2150 scoops in grey: The 18" scoops eat the 21" alive...

Here is 18DS115 in a shorter chamber than above vs. 2150 Hog style, both 1000W input, both eq and Filter applied to 14mm excursion, 10,5mm respectively. Of course, the 18" would have bit more power compression that would need to be shaved off. 512Lx4 = 2048 L, 766Lx4 = 3064L

Make your own mind about it Smile


black ds, grey pd2150


Edited by turbo7 - 21 January 2018 at 9:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2018 at 1:01am
Impulses?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2018 at 10:41am
On SP, people really must stop relying on HR "SIMS",  as gospel and reality.

SP'ers, who like to trust in sims, need to get away from your chair, and "Warrior" keyboard, and  out to Reggae gigs, where Scoops are being used.

Typically, to judge response, SPL, performance of Scoops, you need to hear them.

Then you are qualified to form your "own" opinion of systems,  you have heard.


People here keep crying for 1W/1M response plots of Scoops, and don't realise that realistically tells you nothing, about how two stacks of 4x Scoops will perform in a huge venue, dependant on:

  1. Music Type
  2. Scoop design/Driver Combination,
  3. Speaker Lead gauge/length,
  4. Amp rack power lead gauge/length,
  5. Building Mains supply,
  6. Sub amp/number of Sub amps Used, PSU efficiency/current draw,
  7. If Sub amp is Torroidial/SMPS,
  8. if Powersoft DSP in use, then if is setup expertly,
  9. Brand/Model/ of Pre amp used,
  10. Sound system engineer technical ability.





Edited by levyte357- - 22 January 2018 at 10:45am
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.
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levyte357- View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2018 at 10:50am
I know a few sound system crews, who bought cabs, based on sims and 1W/1M charts, and demos of 1x cab in workshop, where sim/plot promised response flat down to 30Hz, from 1x cab.

Then in reality, 4x cabs in a stack failed to hit below 50hz, at high power.
Trying to extract more, resulted in driver failure.

So keep your sims and 1W/1M charts, I'll use my "ears", to compare cab combinations, when at gigs.

For my personal testing, I'll use Sig gens/Music with spectrum analysers, to estimate cab usable sub range..

Wink


Edited by levyte357- - 22 January 2018 at 10:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonskulus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2018 at 11:21am
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

I know a few sound system crews, who bought cabs, based on sims and 1W/1M charts, and demos of 1x cab in workshop, where sim/plot promised response flat down to 30Hz, from 1x cab.

Then in reality, 4x cabs in a stack failed to hit below 50hz, at high power.
Trying to extract more, resulted in driver failure.

So keep your sims and 1W/1M charts, I'll use my "ears", to compare cab combinations, when at gigs.

For my personal testing, I'll use Sig gens/Music with spectrum analysers, to estimate cab usable sub range..

Wink

X1's are prone for driver failures, according to rumors.. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turbo7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2018 at 12:35pm
I have built and sold around 100x18" scoops so far, 5 different designs, many different drivers. i have always made my prototypes according to sims with different software and of course a lot relies on the cooling system and BL behaviour how a scoop "sounds" and which SPL it produces. Nonlinear parameters ! Still, i see so many people talking and talking - i make a step to my cnc and just cut a prototype...Wink

In reality, the PD2150 will be close to the output of the 18DS115, due to way less PC.  

Most of the time sims are very accurate, of course there is a lot more to it, but gets one in the right direction.

I dont take sims as the holy grail ! But my experience with all bespoken scoop drivers is always the same. I am always right, i was right years ago with the 9600 ( i built the FIRST scoop with it )the 9600 was mashed down by the "keyboard warriors", took a few years for them to realise that their PD and turbomax game has changed. 

For given Volume, a scoop like cabinet with PD2150 is just an average design. But with nice sound characteristics !Check it in reality - if it is not enough go for stronger drivers..




Edited by turbo7 - 22 January 2018 at 12:43pm
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