what is the story with patents and hiring speakers |
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odc04r
Old Croc Joined: 12 July 2006 Location: Sarfampton Status: Offline Points: 5483 |
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Posted: 12 October 2015 at 8:41am |
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Yes I'd agree with your figure of £50000 for a worldwide patent, and that is not including the man hours and specialist staff required to make them stick. It is never as simple as just sending off the application to the office and you'll get it all back a year later.
Then consider you need European, USA, Japan, China, and maybe even some more to make an invention truly global. The barriers to small businesses in this area are immense, hence why as IanD says only the bigger operations get to play the patent wars game. |
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IanD
Registered User Joined: 17 January 2009 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 400 |
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For personal use there aren't any demons to fight; patent law specifically allows exemptions for research or personal non-profit usage, in fact these can be viewed as positive from the point of view of the patent holder if they spread word of the invention.
It's where the thing is sold or distributed that matters, not where it was designed or manufactured, so patenting in China only prevents sales in China, not manufacturing. Patents are only valid in countries where they are filed; if the inventor doesn't file in countries with large potential markets, that's their problem, they shouldn't have tried to save money on patent filing costs. But getting decent worldwide coverage with a properly written strong patent isn't cheap, we worked out that over ten years the cost averaged about £5000 a year, so £50000 per patent. In reality that means you've got to be doing a *lot* of business to make it worth doing this -- and a weak patent without wide coverage isn't worth the paper it's written on. Now you know why most small businesses and inventors don't bother with proper patents -- it costs a fortune to file and even more to enforce against infringement. Even with big businesses (I hold getting on for 50 patents -- or at least, my employers do) the main use is to build up a patent portfolio in case of any disputes ("my patent pile's bigger than yours, don't mess with me"), and the usual result is some kind of royalty or licensing deal. Only a few very big high-profile cases with a shedload of money resting on them ever actually go to court. Edited by IanD - 11 October 2015 at 10:30pm |
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dlyxover
Old Croc Joined: 14 June 2007 Location: Liverpool Status: Offline Points: 1508 |
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Morally its not best practice in my opinion if the application is commercial.
If you make something for personal use, not losing anyone sales/income or causing any damage to said manufactures product or reputation its for yourself to fight the demons. I think its a very valid point IanD brought up. For it to be financial viable to pursue such a issue, one would have to be selling a volume of units and would be making some noise about it (pun intend ) in the process.
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In the Truth there is no news, and in the News there is no truth
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IanD
Registered User Joined: 17 January 2009 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 400 |
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There's no problem -- legal, moral or otherwise -- building something patented for your own personal use. If the patent isn't filed in your country there's no legal problem using it commercially, so long as you don't sell or distribute it in a country where there is a patent.
If the real product isn't available in your country there's no moral problem either because the patent holder isn't losing any sales; if it is, you have to make a decision on whether you want to take income away from them even though they can't stop you legally. If the patent is valid in your country and you sell stuff that infringes it and the patent owner finds out -- which is likely -- you'll probably get a legal letter threatening to sue you unless you stop. But unless the loss of business to them is big enough to pay for the court costs -- which are high in patent infringement cases -- they may not actually take you to court. I know this because we had a case where we knew one of our competitors was infringing one of our patents (they published a conference paper about it!), and after all the letters on the lines of "no we're not" "yes you are" in the end they basically said "so sue us". We looked at the cost of a patent infringement case in the US (estimate was $5M -- which you have to pay if you lose) versus the amount of business we might lose to them, and concluded it just wasn't worth it, even though we knew we were in the right. Which I assume was the same calculation they'd made when deciding to infringe the patent, since they had one of our ex-employees working for them we knew damn well where they got the idea from... |
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_djk_
Old Croc Joined: 23 November 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6002 |
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Tapped horn patent (expired).
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djk
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TRE4U2NV
Old Croc Joined: 21 May 2005 Location: home Status: Offline Points: 2592 |
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ps you'll be surprised what is and isn't copyrighted or patented companies will not shout about what has run out google patent is your guide
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IM SO SECRETIVE BUT I CANT TELL YOU WHY
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TRE4U2NV
Old Croc Joined: 21 May 2005 Location: home Status: Offline Points: 2592 |
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if patent has run out as in the time that said product can not be replicated without prior permission then yes you could cry foul play but if the correct time has passed then that's ok to me, and should be to all as this is how technology moves on the whole point of a patent was to allow the inventor time to profit from their invention, without competition so once time has elapsed on patent then its all good to me my 2p worth
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IM SO SECRETIVE BUT I CANT TELL YOU WHY
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S&P
Registered User Joined: 01 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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LOL. I didn’t call
you dumb. I said it was the dumbest
thing I’ve heard – not the same thing.
We are all able to say dumb things occasionally, including me. Take it as a personal insult if you have to. I guess you’re sensitive. I think you will find you did say it was
morally OK, since you said in a previous post “I see no moral
issue whatsoever, go for it”. On that
basis I think you are quite right that we are not going to be able to have a
balanced and intelligent conversation. I certainly will have a nice day – thanks. |
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GEB
Old Croc Joined: 13 November 2009 Location: East Midlands Status: Offline Points: 1993 |
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gorgo
Registered User Joined: 07 October 2015 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 95 |
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I did not say it was morally ok, infact I agreed it was how you said, what I said was no one seems to care anymore, but it seems all you want to do is fight and throw insults and innuendo at me, many on this thread have said just do it, all I see is you standing on your soap box calling me dumb and saying I am whats wrong with society, lol, I find it difficult to have a balanced and intelligent conversation with morally perfect soap box preachers who conveniently forget those morals when they want to insult people, however im sure there are many religious groups who would welcome your talents for preaching all things moral, have a good day.
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S&P
Registered User Joined: 01 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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OK. Let’s explore this. The essence of your justification for thinking it’s morally ok to take someone else’s property is that patent law is weak and apparently unenforceable in some regions. If the law were stronger, is it suddenly not morally OK? Moral behaviour is nothing to do with the law; it’s about what is right and what is wrong. And taking something that doesn’t belong to you is wrong. |
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gorgo
Registered User Joined: 07 October 2015 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 95 |
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wow, dumb, yes it is as you say, however the point I was making is, no one seems to care anymore, phones are the biggest breach of copyright at the moment via the Chinese manufacturers, there are millions being used and no one has a moral issue using them, no I do not have any patents, however I do have four registered designs to my name, I chose personal design registration over patent to avoid them being freely looked at and copied, the patent system is floored in my oppinion but that is another story, the audio market is full of people back engineering other peoples property and re badging it, cdj's and t1200s instantly come to mind, just because our oppinions differ I see no reason for personal insults
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